Preamble

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

ANGLESEY MARINE TERMINAL BILL [Lords] (By Order)

To be read a Second time upon Monday next at Seven o'clock.

LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL (By Order)

To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next.

LONDON TRANSPORT BILL (By Order)

To be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 7th March.

MILFORD DOCKS BILL (By Order)

To be read a Second time upon Monday next at Seven o'clock.

Oral Answers to Questions — SOCIAL SERVICES

Cancer

Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has to extend the screening services for cancer of the breast in the Gloucester area.

Dr. Stuttaford: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he hopes to have the report of the Committee, set up by himself, to inquire into the early detection of cancer of the breast.

Mr. James Hill: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has in hand to extend the services at present being privately financed for the screening of cancer of the breast to the National Health Service, with particular reference to the Southampton area.

Mr. William Price: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) how many facilities are available in Rugby for the screening for cancer of the breast;
(2) what women were given screening tests for cancer of the breast in Rugby during 1971.

Mrs. Joyce Butler: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now make further public funds available for breast cancer screening clinics; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Pavitt: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now take steps to extend the units available in the National Health Service capable of screening women to give an early diagnosis of breast cancer by mammography and clinical examination; and if he will make a statement.

The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Michael Alison): The principal source of information on the value of pre-symptomatic screening for breast cancer is a study currently in progress in New York. The results so far available are not conclusive and it would therefore be premature to consider introducing a breast cancer screening service within the National Health Service, and further assessment is necessary. It is too early to say when the expert committee I have appointed for this purpose will report.
Clinical examination of the breast or instruction in self-examination, or both, are offered to women at a number of local authority clinics when cervical smears are taken. This is done in clinics in Gloucester and Southampton, but not at Rugby.

Mrs. Oppenheim: Is my hon. Friend aware that in 1970, which is the latest year for which I have figures available, 2,651 women were screened by Gloucestershire County Council Health Department, 1,072 women were screened


by Gloucester City Health Department and more than 2,743 women were screened by the Staywell Mobile Clinic, which is a voluntary organisation receiving only a small grant from the county authority. In view of the excellent service that this valuable organisation provides, will my hon. Friend urge his right hon. Friend to make a substantial Government grant?

Mr. Alison: The making of grants to voluntary bodies performing at local level is a matter for the local authorities concerned. In view of the interest which Gloucester is showing in this matter, I imagine the local authorities will look with some sympathy towards this voluntary organisation.

Dr. Stuttaford: Is my hon. Friend aware that the New York study, of which he speaks rather disparagingly, has shown that early detection of carcinoma of the breast has halved the death rate? Is he aware that this figure has been borne out by other centres in the world and that there is a danger that in this country women will die while doctors quarrel—and that his Department seems to be getting involved?

Mr. Alison: My hon. Friend will note that the sponsors and managers of the New York experiment themselves take a note of cautious optimism, a course which is advocated by the World Health Organisation in its recent report on mass health examinations.

Mr. Price: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he is not as helpful in this matter as he often is in others? Can he give figures to show how many women are having examinations privately? If those figures are as high as we expect, will he ensure that in due course equal facilities are available under the National Health Service for those who need them?

Mr. Alison: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the figures he is seeking for the obvious reason that we do not collect these figures. As to extending the service to the National Health Service, that turns upon a conviction that the screening procedures would be a net beneficial asset and not, possibly, a liability.

Mrs. Butler: In view of the need to expand the present breast cancer screening facilities so that they are available to all women who are at risk, will the

Minister say something a little more encouraging about what his Department is doing to resolve the problem?

Mr. Alison: We are looking at this question with the utmost seriousness, and, indeed, hopefulness, but the hon. Lady I am sure appreciates that there is the possibility of a real hazard here. False positives and false negatives are only too frequent occurrences in these procedures, and real hazards exist which it would be improper for my Department to ignore in the interests of hastening too rapidly.

Mr. Hill: What plans has my hon. Friend to keep the Royal Marsden clinic going, since it already has five years' experience in this subject?

Mr. Alison: My hon. Friend may be aware that a special group under Professor McKeown studying breast cancer screening services is considering whether the facilities at the Royal Marsden clinic may be used as part of this study. No decision on this matter has yet been taken.

Mr. Pavitt: Will the hon. Gentleman not make a clean breast of it and confess that his Department is being overcautious? Does he recall that although the New York fluoridation experiments took place in 1951, it is now 1972 and we have still not succeeded in that matter? Therefore, will he take the initiative and use the peripatetic services at his disposal, such as mass radiography and blood transfusion, in a move towards more preventive services, and include within them mammography?

Mr. Alison: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the New York scheme is not yet complete. We shall have to discover whether the initially positive and helpful results ascertained in a particular age group will persist beyond the short term.

Sir R. Cary: Do I understand my hon. Friend to say that the Government cannot give any direct aid to the voluntary organisations mentioned by my hon. Friend in his original Question?

Mr. Alison: The position is that my Department gives help to voluntary organisations in their national activities through their central organisations, but their local activities—and bodies which


exist only at local level—are matter, for support by local authorities.

Dr. Summerskill: Would the hon. Gentleman accept that his reply is extremely disappointing since it was hoped that this Government would show more sympathy towards preventive medicine and to diagnosis before cure? Would he accept that it is a fact that 10,000 women a year are dying from breast cancer—thousands more than die from cancer of the cervix of the womb? Will the Government, who have shown commendable energy and interest in cytology screening services, keep a close eye on the situation and change their mind at an early date?

Mr. Alison: The hon. Lady will appreciate that we do everything necessary in terms of diagnosis. It is the treatment or screening of pre-symptomatic conditions with which we are here concerned, and uncertainty in this respect imposes on us a proper caution. But the positive approach we have adopted is illustrated by the appointment of Professor McKeown's study group which we hope will work towards a positive end.

Pensions (Review)

Miss Quennell: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the number of people who are not now pensioners but who will benefit from the annual review of pensions and related benefits.

The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Paul Dean): The number varies with the incidence of sickness and unemployment, but it is estimated that at any one time between 3½ and 4 million people are receiving one of the benefits, other than retirement pension, which will be affected by the annual reviews.

Miss Quennell: How many people in total are likely to benefit under the new arrangements, and of that figure how many are likely to receive widows' allowances?

Mr. Dean: About 11 million people altogether will benefit; that is the approximate number of people in receipt of benefit at any one time. Incidentally, they are receiving cash allowances which amount to no fewer than £50 million each week. The number below retire

ment age involved in widows' benefits is 650,000, and a substantial number of other widows receive retirement benefits.

Mr. O'Malley: In view of the large number of people who have been unemployed for an increasingly long period of time as a result of Conservative policies, would the hon. Gentleman look at the desirability—we certainly regard this suggestion as very desirable—of earnings-related unemployment benefit being paid for a longer period than six months?

Mr. Dean: It was always felt by the Labour Government that, when earnings-related supplement runs out, it is better for people to be helped by the more flexible arrangements provided by supplementary benefit.

Dental Services

Mr. William Hamilton: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is aware that the new increased dental charges are having an adverse effect on dental health; and what steps he intends to take to eliminate these effects.

The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph): As my hon. Friend indicated in his reply to the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) on 25th January, evidence so far available does not suggest that the present system of dental charges has had this effect.—[Vol. 829, c. 370.]

Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that dentists in Scotland have expressed the view that fewer and fewer people are going to the dentists and that when they make a visit they ask for extractions rather than fillings because extractions are cheaper? Will not this situation be worsened following the recent announcement about increased charges to pay dentists higher salaries? Will the right hon. Gentleman take another look at this matter and consult the dental profession to obtain from it firm evidence to confirm the information contained in my Question?

Sir K. Joseph: I shall be in continual touch with the dental profession, but it is too soon for statistics to give us the answer we need. In the past, increases in charges have always led to a pre-increase surge and a post-increase dip, after which the basic rising trend has


reasserted itself. I still believe that this is what will happen.

Mr. Molloy: Is the Secretary of State aware that the current situation is causing unnecessary anguish and pain for both dentists and patients, and that dentists are feeling frustrated with the present arrangements? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take my hon. Friend's advice to look at the situation before it gets too bad?

Sir K. Joseph: I am continually looking at the situation. The fact is that about 60 per cent. of dental treatment courses are free and a large number of the remaining 40 per cent. are being charged at a lower figure than that which was charged before the change. I do not agree that there is any evidence to justify disquiet.

Mrs. Renée Short: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what proposals he has for the development of National Health Service dental services.

Sir K. Joseph: I have just invited the British Dental Association to meet me in order to discuss arrangements for launching a joint examination of ways of securing the long-term development and improvement of the dental services available under the National Health Service.

Mrs. Short: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that there is an acute shortage of dentists in many parts of the country; that in the last ten years there has been an increase of only 6 per cent. in the number of dentists who have, nevertheless, done a considerably greater amount—about 67 per cent.—of dental work; that, because of the shortage, in many towns National Health Service dentistry is virtually unobtainable; that patients requiring dental treatment have to attend dentists as private patients; and that the dental service in these areas is in danger of breaking down completely? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore undertake to discuss this matter with the B.D.A. and also to look at the number of students entering dental schools for training as dentists? This matter is very urgent.

Sir K. Joseph: The short answer is, yes, I will. However, I should not like to leave the impression that these problems will be easily or quickly solved.

They are part of the agenda which I expect to discuss with the B.D.A.

Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: When my right hon. Friend has these discussions with the B.D.A., will he see what can be done to solve the problem which arises from the fact that eventually there is no dentist of last resort, as there is with doctors, and see that there is a dentist to whom a person can be directed finally if he cannot find a National Health Service dentist?

Sir K. Joseph: There are arrangements for names to be made available at hospitals and other places, but I will re-examine the situation.

Mrs. Castle: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the costs of the dentists for the more specialised services are now being so inadequately covered under the National Health Service arrangements that many dentists are being induced to persuade their patients to have private treatment for anything but the most basic arrangements or priority services? Will he make it an aim of his policy to prevent the continuing development of a two-tier service with the more routine work done under the National Heath Service and the more elaborate work done by private practice?

Sir K. Joseph: The rates are fixed by the Dental Rates Study Group, but I am sure that the dentists will raise the points to which the right hon. Lady referred in the discussions to which I look forward.

Miss Quennell: When my right hon. Friend holds these discussions, will he bear in mind the serious need for some form of emergency dental service in large areas of the country where sometimes the hospitals are unable to provide the necessary services for the three critical dental emergencies which occur?

Sir K. Joseph: I will certainly make sure that this subject is on the agenda.

Mr. Leslie Huckfield: When the Minister has these discussions, will he bear in mind what my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renée Short) said about the National Health Service in dentistry being in serious danger of breaking down in many parts of the country? Will he also bear in mind that this is being aided and abetted by consultants who specialise in telling dentists how to sell dentistry?

Sir K. Joseph: There is a minority which is willing to pay for dental services. My objective is to improve the services which are available under the National Health Service. The House should recognise that dental courses under the National Health Service have been rising steadily and, I believe, are still rising, though I admit that in certain areas and for certain forms of treatment there is a problem.

Psychiatric Services

Sir B. Rhys Williams: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement as to his policy for expansion of preventive psychiatric services and the provision of facilities for mental aftercare.

Sir K. Joseph: Recent advice I have sent to hospital and local authorities envisages a comprehensive hospital and community service for the mentally ill in every district. I have asked hospital and local authorities to consult together to ensure that their plans dovetail, and further guidance on the pattern of community services is in preparation. The resources allocated for local authority capital expenditure take account of the need for development.

Sir B. Rhys Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that in the matter of after-care it is far more humane as well as cheaper to concentrate on rehabilitation rather than to fall back on re-admission? Will he concentrate on the problems of local authorities who wish to meet their obligations but who run into financial obstacles if they seek to do so?

Sir K. Joseph: Yes, Sir; those are all unobjectionable sentiments, but we are not as aware as we should like to be on how to achieve these objectives in rehabilitation.

Mr. Mayhew: What reason does the right hon. Gentleman have for supposing that hospitals and local authorities will co-operate as he suggests?

Sir K. Joseph: I shall be monitoring this co-operation from the hospital end intensively, and I shall shortly ask local authorities for a ten-year plan on the social services side which will enable me to see how well their plans dovetail in with the hospital plans.

Elderly Persons (Accommodation)

Mr. Duffy: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has for expanding Part III accommodation for the elderly; and if he will make a statement.

Sir K. Joseph: As I announced in the House on 22nd November last, I am making substantial additional loan authorisations available to local authorities to enable them to replace the former workhouses and other unsatisfactory buildings and increase their overall provision of homes for the elderly.—[Vol. 826, c. 957.]

Mr. Duffy: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. May I assure him that his intention is greatly appreciated in Yorkshire and Humberside where the facilities are appreciated by both patients and relatives and where the demand for places still considerably exceeds the number available. May I further ask him to bear in mind the tendency for these facilities to be used for borderline geriatric hospital cases? Will he invite hospital authorities to think seriously about their own provision in this respect?

Sir K. Joseph: Yes, Sir. I shall shortly be sending out to all concerned a new circular setting out guidance on the treatment of psycho-geriatric cases.

Influenza Vaccines

Mr. Brewis: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what further consideration he has now given to the effectiveness of anti-flu vaccination; and whether he will make a statement.

Mr. Alison: Influenza vaccines currently available can be expected to give short-lived protection for between 40 to 60 per cent. of individuals vaccinated. A further trial of available vaccines is now in progress.

Mr. Brewis: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, which marks an advance in the situation. Would he be prepared to take into account the research which has already been done in countries such as France, the United States and Japan, whose Governments have sponsored anti-influenza vaccines officially?

Mr. Alison: My hon. Friend might know that the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation advises that certain exposed groups might beneficially be vaccinated on that basis in this country. On the question of research, the Public Health Laboratory is undertaking a large-scale trial of available vaccine.

Mr. Lipton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I tried one of these anti-flu vaccinations not long ago and that I have had colds on and off ever since? When will the Minister do something about the exaggerated claims of drug manufacturers?

Mr. Alison: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman will allow us to take him to the Public Health Laboratory for a trial period?

Dr. Stuttaford: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a considerable difference between influenza, which will kill, and the cold, which may be inconvenient, and that, although vaccination gives only a short-lived protection, so indeed is the 'flu season only short-lived?

Mr. Alison: I take my hon. Friend's point. I think that if we allowed all people who had colds to progress as far as getting pneumonia we could then cure them.

Dr. Miller: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the statistics which he has for the efficacy of the vaccine, in which he said that 40 to 60 per cent. were protected, include the large number of people who, while they may not be completely protected from the ravages of 'flu, certainly get it in a much milder form?

Mr. Alison: I cannot answer that question, which borders upon the realms of specialised medical knowledge, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman about it

Psychiatric Hospitals (Discharged Patients)

Mr. Hicks: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will consider seeking to introduce a fixed scale of payments and benefits, based on a regional structure, for patients discharged from psychiatric hospitals into

approved private accommodation in the community.

Mr. Dean: No, Sir. A fixed scale would be less flexible than the existing arrangements. Local authorities have powers to make contributions towards the cost of accommodation where earnings or supplementary benefits are insufficient to meet the needs of ex-patients who require supportive aftercare.

Mr. Hicks: Is my hon. Friend aware that his right hon. Friend's highly desirable scheme for placing these former patients in society could—I put it no more strongly than that at this stage—be put in jeopardy if the necessary funds are not available to the recipients in order that they can pay for this approved accommodation?

Mr. Dean: Yes. It is highly desirable that this should be so. I know that my hon. Friend has a particular case in mind, about which I have written to him. I hope that he feels that my reply was satisfactory.

Remand Home Vacancies (North-West)

Mr. Blaker: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he has received the plan of the Children's Regional Planning Committee for the North-West; and if he will make a statement on proposals to improve the position regarding remand home vacancies for girls and boys in the region.

Mr. Alison: Yes, Sir. We are now considering the plan, including proposals for the accommodation of children remanded to the care of local authorities.

Mr. Blaker: Will my hon. Friend tell us whether he has yet been able to satisfy himself that the proposals are adequate to remedy the difficult situation in which some local authorities in the North West have found themselves regarding remand home accommodation in recent years, as a result of which too often boys and girls have had to be remanded in police detention rooms?

Mr. Alison: My Department is examining the proposals placed before it by local authorities concerned. My hon. Friend may be aware that some of the difficulties arise because of unavoidable


bunching. In the first three-quarters of 1971, boys' homes in the North West were 75 to 80 per cent. occupied and girls' homes were 76 to 90 per cent. occupied.

Disabled Persons (Electro-Mechanical Equipment)

Mr. Dykes: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will institute a departmental study on methods of rationalising and expanding the development and manufacture of specialised electro-mechanical equipment for registered disabled persons, and the financing of such equipment.

Mr. Alison: There is a continuous study of ways of rationalising and expanding the development and manufacture of equipment of all kinds needed in the National Health Service.

Mr. Dykes: I appreciate my hon. Friend's answer and the difficulty. However, could we not have a more positive answer? Because of the relatively early stage of development of this machinery, its high cost and general lack of availability in large numbers, many disabled people are being deprived of what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said was equipment to make their conditions as normal as possible. Will the Department look at this matter more energetically?

Mr. Alison: My right hon. Friend has set up a small fact-finding group to examine questions relating to the provision of equipment for disabled people generally. We hope to have their report before too long.

Mr. Carter-Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman take it from me that we are grateful not to him but to the whole House, for the efforts which have been made to get equipment like this for the disabled? Is he aware that the numbers have quadrupled in recent times? Will he also take it from me that we may get bogus manufacturers trying to produce equipment without safety factors? Will he therefore make sure that his Department at all times insists that there shall be reserve powers available so that the severely disabled do not lose confidence and can be protected for at least 24 hours in the event of failure?

Mr. Alison: I noted very carefully what the hon. Gentleman said. This matter appropriately falls within the ambit of the study group which has been set up in my Department.

Mr. Alfred Morris: If we can afford to spend another £66 million a year on research and development for military purposes, as suggested in the current White Paper on Defence, why can we not spend more on research and development for severely disabled people?

Mr. Alison: The £66 million to which the hon. Member refers is, nevertheless, exceeded by very many headings of the expenditure we make on vital areas of the National Health Service.

Death Grant

Mr. Dempsey: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if, in view of the rising cost of burials, he will increase the death grant; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Charles R. Morris: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement indicating what proposals he has for increasing the death grant national health insurance entitlement.

Mr. Dean: I must ask the hon. Members to await the statement my right hon. Friend will be making in due course on our proposals arising out of this year's review.

Mr. Dempsey: Would the Minister not agree that since the present grant was fixed funeral costs have escalated and the level of grant no longer represents a fair contribution towards expenses? Accordingly, does he not think the time is overdue when the rate of this grant should be raised to a more realistic level?

Mr. Dean: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the rise in the cost of funerals but I hope he will accept that it has not been the practice in the past to increase the death grant at each uprating. This is one of the many priorities which my right hon. Friend will be bearing in mind in this year's review.

Mr. Morris: I thank the Minister for his reply, but will he bear in mind that the ever-increasing cost of living is


nothing compared with the ever-increasing cost of dying? My constituents tell me that the average cost of a simple funeral is about £100–£120. As the child of any family is restricted in the amount of insurance which he or she may take out in respect of a parent, is it not time that people were relieved of this financial burden at what is obviously a very distressing time in their lives?

Mr. Dean: This is a question of priorities—of how one rates it when resources are limited, along with the needs of pensioners, widows and the like. My right hon. Friend will bear this point in mind but I cannot give any commitment.

Mr. McCrindle: While questioning the figures given by the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Charles R. Morris), may I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind that there is a great deal of merit in the Question asked by the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey)? Recently in my constituency there was evidence of a very substantial increase in local authority burial charges. Would my hon. Friend bear this very much in mind when the review comes along?

Mr. Dean: Yes, I will certainly bear that in mind.

Social Service Departments

Mr. Milne: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the progress made by his Department in establishing closer liaison with local authority social welfare departments in the work of the Department of Health and Social Security throughout the country and in the Northern Region in particular.

Mr. Dean: The regional social work service of my Department exists in order to maintain two-way contact with local authority social service departments, and one of its regional offices is in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. There is also close and continuing consultation between social service departments and local social security offices about matters of mutual concern.

Mr. Milne: Is the Minister aware that this is a very welcome development and is very helpful in the areas where it is being practised, carried out and extended? But there is still a need for a

greater liaison between the Departments mentioned in the Question and the continuance of this will be of real benefit

Mr. Dean: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he said. I agree that much progress has been made since the social service departments were set up in local authorities and since we set up the new social work service in the Department. But a great deal more can still be done to ensure that we get the two parts of the service locked in closely together.

Mr. Simon Mahon: Is the Minister aware that I agree with all that my hon. Friend says? Millions of people in this country in these days of competition and inflation find it very hard indeed to live. Will the Under-Secretary instruct the district officers in the social security offices, who are very humane, to use even more compassion, because this is needed in the North-West of England? Will he tell them to extend their compassion because this is the only way in which people will get through the winter?

Mr. Dean: I am most grateful for what the hon. Member said about the compassion and the service that officers of the Department provide. In recent weeks, in particular, they have been working very creditably under great pressure.

Kidney Machines

Mr. Booth: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will increase the grant paid to patients treating themselves with kidney machines in their homes to a level equivalent to the average cost of the electricity used by the machines.

Mr. Alison: Hospital authorities have been advised that it is their responsibility to pay for the electricity used by the artificial kidney machine. If the hon. Member will let me have details of any difficulties I shall be glad to look into them.

Mr. Booth: Is the Minister aware that the grant being paid in the North West in general and, to my knowledge, in my constituency is very much below the cost of operating these machines? In addition to the cost of the current for the machines, many of these patients have to bear the cost of additional heating in the rooms where the machines are


installed. I very much welcome his undertaking to look into the problem.

Mr. Alison: It is the responsibility of the regional hospital board to keep up with price increases charged by the electricity authority. Regional boards, however, are not responsible for the cost of heating rooms where the machinery is installed.

Mr. Jeffrey Archer: When does my hon. Friend hope that it will be possible for all people who need a kidney machine to have easy access to one?

Mr. Alison: If it is a question of adaptation of facilities and premises and not a strict clinical recommendation by the doctor concerned, powers already exist to adapt homes.

Mr. Marks: Are the hospital authorities told to inform patients of their rights in this respect and in respect of travel expenses and other such matters or do they always wait for patients to ask?

Mr. Alison: Patients are told about this when the setting up of the dialysis unit in the home is arranged—which has to be done through the hospital.

Children (Cost)

Mr. Pardoe: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will estimate, from information available to him, the average additional cost per year for a married man with average industrial earnings of having one child, two children, and three children, respectively.

Sir K. Joseph: We do not have the information required to make an estimate of the annual cost of having children.

Mr. Pardoe: Is the Minister aware that I rather suspected that that might be the answer, but that it is inadequate. A very large part of our social security system is based on the figure he cannot give. Is he aware the additional allowance on the supplementary benefits scales for a child aged 5 to 11 is 21 per cent. of that for a married couple, compared with 37 per cent. recommended in Beveridge and 40 per cent. given in Japan, America and Germany? Why is that?

Sir K. Joseph: There is a wide range of circumstances which the different facets of the social security system try to take

into account. There is a wide range of other factors to be taken into account before such judgments as the hon. Gentleman is seeking to make can accurately be made. But if he would tell me what he has in mind in particular, I will try to arrive at an accurate figure.

Sir B. Rhys Williams: When prices go up, the men may get the wage increases but it is the women who face the price increases. Would the Secretary of State not agree that now is the time to introduce family allowances for the first child?

Sir K. Joseph: That is easier said than done. It would be a very big operation which to a large extent would be unnecessary since the vast majority of families with one child—there are four million of them—and with a first child who do not receive family allowances do not need extra help in that way.

Mr. O'Malley: While I recognise that the Government's top priority through tax concessions is help to the wealthy, does the Secretary of State not think that the Government ought to keep the Conservative election pledge to help parents with moderate incomes by increasing family allowances and preferably by making these family allowances tax free?

Sir K. Joseph: The House has debated this in great detail on many occasions. I am not in the least defensive about the fact that this country requires encouragement to the enterprising as well as help for those who need help, and it is Conservative policy to provide both.

Mentally Ill Persons

Mr. Mayhew: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will issue a White Paper on services for the mentally sick.

Sir K. Joseph: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 15th February.—[Vol. 831, c. 65–6.]

Mr. Mayhew: Is the Secretary of State aware that while few people would challenge his objectives for these services, especially his aim to close our psychiatric hospitals within 15 years, there is concern about the vagueness of his plans and his recent advice to hospitals and local authorities? Will he therefore set out a specific plan for the powers needed, the timing,


and the costings so as to carry out this project within a stated time?

Sir K. Joseph: I have studied very carefully the views of the organisation of which the hon. Gentleman is chairman, and I look forward to commenting upon them at the annual general meeting of his organisation later this week. The answer is rather too lengthy to give to a supplementary question.

Mr. Raphael Tuck: Before issuing a White Paper, will the right hon. Gentleman institute a full-scale inquiry into conditions at Napsbury Mental Hospital in general and in particular into the death of a Watford woman patient there who is reported to have died from severe internal injuries?

Sir K. Joseph: I understand that police inquiries are in progress about the very sad incident, and I shall have to wait until they are completed before making any decision.

Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many hon. Members on both sides share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) that the advisory document so far issued is so vague as to be totally inadequate? In view of the revelations of a succession of recent inquiries into the scandals in some of our mental hospitals, it is imperative that we should have a detailed and fully costed White Paper as soon as possible.

Sir K. Joseph: I take the subject intensely seriously, but I hope the House will wait until I have spoken later this week specifically to the criticisms before coming to any attempted assessment.

Nursing (Salmon Committee's Proposals)

Mr. Cockeram: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many hospitals implemented the Salmon proposals for nursing in 1971; what reports he has received of the practical working of this scheme; and how many hospitals he expects to introduce the Salmon proposals in 1972.

Mr. Alison: The first step in implementing the recommendations of the Salmon Committee in a hospital group is the appointment of a chief or principal nursing officer. Fifty-one such appoint

ments were made in 1971 bringing the total to two-thirds of all hospital groups in England and Wales. A further 60 appointments are expected in 1972. We hope to issue a report shortly on experience in implementation.

Mr. Cockeram: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of the Salmon proposals to those nurses who wish to make a lifetime career in the profession, because they offer them a career structure which they have not previously enjoyed?

Mr. Alison: I believe that the Salmon proposals and their implementation are proving increasingly powerful magnets to recruitment in hospitals which have Salmon systems.

Mr. William Hamilton: Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that as important as, if not more important than, implementing the Salmon proposals is to treat the nurses as a special case in respect of salaries in the same way as Wilberforce has recommended for the coal miners, and that public opinion is just as strongly behind the nurses, and will force the Government into action on their behalf, as it was behind the miners?

Mr. Alison: I do not want to anticipate the constructive and profitable negotiations going on in the Whitley Council about nurses' pay.

Heating Allowances

Mr. Blenkinsop: asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many extra heating allowances had been paid by the Supplementary Benefits Commission at the latest available date; and in how many cases this allowance is being paid in addition to the special long-term allowance.

Mr. Dean: At November, 1970, 196,000 allowances were in payment; and in 181,000 cases the long-term addition, which covers special needs up to the level of 50p a week, was payable as well. Further figures reflecting the recently improved levels of heating allowances will be available in the spring.

Mr. Blenkinsop: Is the Minister aware that in some cases of which I have evidence the extra allowance for heating is being denied because the long-term addition is being paid? Will he make


clear his Department's welcome of the efforts made by bodies such as the trades council and others in my constituency to try to bring to the attention of old people the allowances available for them?

Mr. Dean: I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman says. We are doing that in the review of benefits now taking place. Each book, each individual case, is being looked at carefully to see whether more help may be available. But the extra heating allowances are special allowances available over and above the long-term addition for those who have special needs for them.

Dame Irene Ward: This is a very important matter which has already been raised from the North. When will my hon. Friend be in a position to let us have some information? I am very grateful to him for the inquiries being made. Other people have been concerned with the matter for a considerable time.

Mr. Dean: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for the details of cases she has sent me, which are being reviewed. It is clear from them that there is a great deal more to learn about this age-old problem than we yet know.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell: Is there not a need for a big extension of the heating allowances to a much wider range of pensioners on supplementary benefit, particularly in view of the increase in the price of gas and electricity, and possibly of coal?

Mr. Dean: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will certainly consider that. But it is a wider problem, because in some cases having more money available for heating merely means heating the street or damp walls. We must tackle bad housing as well.

Mr. Fred Evans: Will the Minister bear in mind a report issued today by Task Force. In an examination in nine London boroughs of old people who are sadly in need of warmth, 27 per cent. declared that they do not get enough warmth by day and 20·9 per cent. that they do not get enough warmth by night, and of the 553 old people receiving supplementary benefit who were asked, only 10·7 per cent. were aware of their eligibility. Will the hon. Gentleman do something to try to cure the situation urgently?

Mr. Dean: I think I know the report to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Every time we receive such reports we follow up the cases individually.

Oral Answers to Questions — TOURISM

Mr. Adley: asked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with the coordination between the Department of the Environment and the Department of Trade and Industry concerning the development of tourism; and if he will make a statement.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): Yes, Sir. There is already full co-operation between all the Departments concerned; and they in turn work closely with the tourist boards and local authorities.

Mr. Adley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some people in the tourist industry would be glad if the Government would do what successive Governments have failed to do, which is to credit the tourist industry with the importance its past figures merit? Is he aware that in the West Country, for instance, tourism is now the biggest employer of labour, bigger than agriculture and aviation, and that the British Hotels and Restaurants Association has just issued figures showing that 93,000 job opportunities are available in the industry? There seems to be great difficulty in persuading people, particularly in areas of declining industries, to change jobs into the newer industries such as tourism.

Mr. Heath: We fully appreciate the vital importance of the tourist industry, which is one of our major growth industries. I agree with my hon. Friend about the employment opportunities in it. At the same time, it is necessary to encourage training, and there are nearly 4,000 registered trainees in the industry as a whole.

Mr. Milne: Is the Prime Minister aware that the appointment of a Minister for Tourism is a long overdue necessity, and that such an appointment would also have the advantage of taking this very important growth industry from the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, who has had no other experience of growth industries since his appointment?

The Prime Minister: Successive Governments have examined the question. It is very important that tourism, aspects of which concern so many Departments, should come under a Secretary of State who can speak for it in the Cabinet.

Oral Answers to Questions — ISRAEL

Mr. William Hamilton: asked the Prime Minister what plans he has for seeking to pay an official visit to Israel.

The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary expects to make an official visit to Israel next month: but I have at present no plans to do so.

Mr. Hamilton: I am very gratified to know that the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary is going, especially as it is some while since he visited the Arab countries. Can the Prime Minister give an assurance that the Government intend to play the rôle of the honest broker—well, honest as far as they can be—to bring together the natural resources of the Arab world and the great human and technical resources of the Jews in the interests of the peace of the whole area?

The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend visited the Arab Republic of Egypt from 12th to 15th September. On this occasion he is going to Israel. This demonstrates that we wish for nothing but peace in the Middle East. I believe it fair to say that since 1967 both Administrations have been working, within the context of the United Nations Resolution, to try to find a permanent settlement between Israel and the Arab countries.

Mr. Churchill: As the greatest obstacle to the achievement of a peaceful settlement in the Middle East has been the direct military intervention by a super Power, establishing naval and air force bases in the area and introducing its own military and air force personnel to the extent of more than 15,000, will my right hon. Friend, in consultation with the allies of this country, press for the removal of those forces which pose such a direct threat to the independence of every State in the Middle East?

The Prime Minister: This would obviously be taken into account by Egypt and the other Arab countries in negotiating a peace settlement. Once there is a peace treaty in which the Arab countries accept that Israel is there to stay and that they will live together, obviously the need for any external presence from another power is no longer necessary.

Oral Answers to Questions — AFRICA (COMMONWEALTH COUNTRIES)

Sir G. de Freitas: asked the Prime Minister what plans he has to seek to pay official visits to Commonwealth countries in West and East Africa.

The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so.

Sir G. de Freitas: Is the Prime Minister aware that many of those who saw the transition to independence of these African countries have realised that these countries appear to feel that they are forgotten today by Britain? Is he also aware that these countries have, in spite of Rhodesia, a very great respect for this country? Will he think again about this or, at least, about his right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary visiting them?

The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary has it in mind to visit some of the countries of West Africa, certainly, and I hope that it will be possible for him to visit others. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that the African countries feel forgotten, or that they have any justification for feeling forgotten. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development visited Zambia and Malawi in October, 1971, and my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office visited The Gambia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Nigeria and Ghana in 1970; Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda in 1971; and Zaire, Swaziland, Botswana and Lesotho in January, 1972. It is apparent that there have been a considerable number of visits to African countries. We have also been able to welcome to London almost all the Heads of Government from black African Commonwealth countries in the last 18 months.

Oral Answers to Questions — SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EMPLOYMENT (SPEECH)

Mr. Skinner: asked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Secretary of State for Employment in Harrogate on 6th February on unemployment represents Government policy.

The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend drew attention to the massive Government measures aimed at reducing unemployment generally, as well as to special help for youth employment through extra apprenticeship and training opportunities and the new scheme for employing young people on work of social value.

Mr. Skinner: I know that the Prime Minister has had a rough week, but he might have remembered that the Secretary of State for Employment also said in that speech that the Government's unemployment forecasts have gone completely haywire. How does that reconcile with the election pledges made by the Prime Minister that he would cut unemployment at a stroke? Will he consult the British nation again, or is this another example of a Cabinet Minister saying that the Prime Minister's words should not be taken too seriously?

The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend has constantly pointed out to the House what the hon. Gentleman knows, that inflationary wage increases cause unemployment.

Sir G. Nabarro: While dissociating myself absolutely from that ridiculous supplementary question, would my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister endeavour to press upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer that following his measures of last July there have been dramatic increases in the output of motor cars in the West Midlands but, notwithstanding this, that unemployment continues to rise in that area, and that we therefore want, at an early date, further reflationary measures?

The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend that what has been happening in the motor industry is, again, the result of making better use of those employed in the factories. Productivity has greatly increased and so output has risen without more men being taken on. This is true now of a wide

section of British industry. The remedy is that we have further investment and take advantage of markets, including the large European market. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has always indicated to the House that he must judge from time to time the extent to which any reflation may be necessary.

Mr. Bidwell: Does the Prime Minister expect that this year's Budget will make any serious inroad on the entirely unacceptable unemployment figure?

The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would reply that he could not anticipate his Budget—and nor can I.

Oral Answers to Questions — YORKSHIRE AND HUMBERSIDE

Mr. Duffy: asked the Prime Minister whether he will pay an official visit to the Yorkshire and Humberside Region in the near future.

The Prime Minister: I visited the region in March and October of last year, but I have at present no plans for further official visits.

Mr. Duffy: Is the Prime Minister aware that, paradoxically, the problem of Yorkshire and Humberside is that it has continued to be regarded as relatively prosperous at a time of underlying deterioration, so that now, in earnings, hours of work and employment in growth industries, it has tended to fall behind other regions? This state of deterioration was concealed for a long time by low unemployment and net emigration. In rethinking regional policy, will the Prime Minister bear in mind in-between regions such as Yorkshire and Humberside, which have been denied the remedial help available to other regions but whose problems and needs have now grown every bit as acute and urgent?

The Prime Minister: I shall certainly hear that point in mind in the context of the priorities to be given to special development areas, development areas, and intermediate areas. But in the Yorkshire and Humberside region, I.D.C. approvals last year were for over 5 million square feet of floor space and an estimated additional employment of nearly 6,000. In the fourth quarter of 1971


there was an increase compared with the previous quarter. I have indicated before that in various regions there is this hopeful sign of an increase in the floor space covered by I.D.C. approvals.

Mr. Jeffrey Archer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us have no desire to welcome him to Humberside? We wish to welcome him to North Lincolnshire. Will he take seriously the plebiscite being held on whether those of North Lincolnshire wish to become part of Humberside or wish to remain yellow-bellies?

The Prime Minister: I was aware of this difference of view in the area, and the controversy arises from the Local Government Bill now in Committee. The local authorities are now being given the opportunity to express their views on these proposals.

Mr. James Johnson: Is the Prime Minister aware that the previous Administration began the Humber Feasibility Study, due to be published this year, and began estuarial development studies, of which Humberside was almost the leading estuary? It needs someone of the right hon. Gentleman's status to look at this matter. Would he please come to Hull and push the boat out there on our behalf?

The Prime Minister: I have been to Hull many times, and I would always be happy to go again, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is in a position in the Cabinet to deal with all these matters.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMAN FEDERAL REPUBLIC

Mr. Spearing: asked the Prime Minister when he expects to make his next official visit to Bonn.

The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to make a further visit to Bonn, but I look forward to welcoming Herr Brandt when he pays an official visit to this country on 20th and 21st April.

Mr. Spearing: When the Prime Minister welcomes Herr Brandt, would he ask him how the scheme works out in practice whereby the Bundestag looks at articles in draft in the Community? Would he say why, if it can be organised

in the Bundestag in Bonn, such a practice cannot be organised for the in Britain?

The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. On the last occasion I was in Bonn I discussed with the German Chancellor the workings of the German Parliament in relation to the European Community—not only the European Parliament but also the question of the Ministerial Council and its relationship to the Cabinet, and so on. Naturally, we are perfectly prepared to discuss this with any of the members of the Community and to learn from their experience over the past 12 years. But when my right hon. and learned Friend proposed, in the debate last week, that there should be an ad hoc committee of both Houses to examine this matter, this surely would be the purpose of that committee, and it would take into account the experience of the countries which are already members of the Community.

Mr. Heffer: Would the right hon. Gentleman indicate whether he will discuss with Chancellor Brandt the question of European security and the whole idea of a European security conference? Will that be one of the priority items on the agenda?

The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is not customary to publish an agenda for visits of this kind, but I cannot imagine an official visit with the German Chancellor in which we did not discuss the question of a European security conference. After all, the timing for such a conference is bound up with the Ostpolitik, which is one of Chancellor Brandt's primary concerns. The hon. Gentleman may rest assured that we shall go into this in considerable detail.

Oral Answers to Questions — M. POMPIDOU (TALKS)

Q.7. Mr. Blaker: asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement about his consultations with Monsieur Pompidou, during the latter's recent visit to the United Kingdom.

Q.9. Mr. St. John-Stevas: asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on his official talks with President Pompidou.

The Prime Minister: To my great regret I had to ask President Pompidou last Friday to postpone his visit to Chequers, because of the likelihood that discussions about the dispute on miners' pay would continue while he was here. I am already in touch with the President about another date for our meeting.

Mr. Blaker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House will hope that the President is able to find a date on which to come fairly soon? In view of the close identity of interests on so many matters now existing between France and this country, is not the time auspicious to make a forward move towards a closer alignment of foreign policies, probably in the context of the enlarged Communities?

The Prime Minister: We have been working closely with the French Government, as we have with other members of the Community. In a number of cases, our policies are aligned. In some there are differences. Sometimes they are differences in timing. Sometimes they are differences of tactics. This is understandable. But the members of the Community and the four who have now signed the Treaty of Accession are working together closely at official level. In our case, a senior official from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office took part in the meeting of the political directors of the E.E.C. last week. This was the first time that we had been officially represented at such a meeting. The working arrangements are now becoming very close.

Mr. St. John-Stevas: Since this visit, unfortunately, had to be put off because of a little local difficulty—presumably because my right hon. Friend did not want to offer the French President cold food—may I welcome the fact that this fixture is to be restored? Will my right hon. Friend point out to the President that, thanks to successive White Papers, everyone in this House, including the Leader of the Opposition, was aware, or should have been aware, of the constitutional implications of our application to join the Common Market?

The Prime Minister: I know that the President of France follows these matters very closely and that he studies speeches in this House as well. I have no doubt that he will be fully aware of the position of the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Dalyell: Will the subject of an Anglo-French nuclear force be on the agenda?

The Prime Minister: Again, there is no published agenda for a meeting of this kind. As this was to be a meeting at Chequers, it was also to be of a more informal kind than is normal at No. 10. However, as was stated at our last meeting in May, this was not an immediate question.

Oral Answers to Questions — OFFICERS' MESS, ALDERSHOT (EXPLOSION)

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I regret to have to inform the House that at 12.40 p.m. an explosion occurred in the Headquarters Officers' Mess of the 16th Parachute Brigade at Aldershot. Seven people were killed—one officer, one man and five women on the staff—and at least 13 are injured—nine officers, one staff sergeant and three further civilians of the mess staff. The police are investigating with the utmost urgency. In the meantime I have no further details. I am sure that the House will unite in condemning this outrage and in expressing sympathy with the relatives of those killed and all those injured.

Mrs. Shirley Williams: We on this side of the House of course wish to associate ourselves with the right hon. Gentleman in expressing deep sympathy for the relatives of those who have been killed at Aldershot. Is he aware that the Kilburn Battalion of the Provisional I.R.A. has, according to Press tapes, accepted responsibility for this outrage? Can any useful purpose be served in, as so frequently happens, pursuing a policy of revenge which produces seven innocent victims of the tragedy of Northern Ireland?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any of the injured are seriously injured and whether there is any danger to life? Is he in touch with his right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, and will he inquire of him what security measures were taken with regard to the 16th Parachute Brigade, which had already been publicly threatened by the Provisional I.R.A.? Will he now ask


his right hon. and noble Friend to undertake a review of security measures at Army bases throughout the United Kingdom, especially for the protection of civilian employees as well as military men?
Finally, we on this side of the House wish to say that this is an obscene outrage and one which raises the most serious questions for law and order on this side of the Irish Channel.

Mr. Maudling: I welcome very much what the hon. Lady has said. I am afraid that I cannot give any more details at the moment. It happened only a very short time ago. All investigations are being pursued as rapidly as possible. I saw the report on the tape. I have no doubt that this is one of the leads that the police will be following.

Mr. Thorpe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at this stage the House can do little else but register its sense of horror and express its sympathy to the dependants of those who have lost their lives and those who are injured? While we have yet to establish the source of this outrage, if the intention of those who perpetrated this ghastly act was to achieve any political result surely the moral is that nothing is less likely to achieve a peaceful solution than tactics of this sort?

Mr. Maudling: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Critchley: The whole House will share the feeling of anger and sorrow at this wanton act of murder, in which seven of my constituents have died, five of them women, and 13 have been injured. Has my right hon. Friend seen a claim that the Official I.R.A. has said that it was responsible? Will he please assure us that he will spare no effort to apprehend those responsible for this foul outrage?

Mr. Maudling: All the resources of the law in this country are already engaged in trapping the miscreants.

Mr. Concannon: On behalf of all right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House and, of course, all members of the Labour Party, may I register my disgust and anger at this senseless outrage? Further to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin (Mrs.

Shirley Williams), may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any security plans have been made for infantry barracks in this country, in view of the fact that, following what has been termed "Bloody Sunday", threats were made by certain people that this kind of action would take place? Have any security precautions been taken in these barracks, especially with regard to the protection of married quarters?

Mr. Maudling: We were well aware of the threats made about outrages of this kind. I do not think I should go further into these matters at this stage.

Oral Answers to Questions — HEALTH SERVICE COMMISSIONER

The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the appointment of a Health Service Commissioner.
The Government have decided that there should be a Health Service Commissioner as part of the arrangements for dealing with complaints in the National Health Service. Although the great majority of complaints are satisfactorily dealt with by health authorities, there are some that the citizen should be able to refer to an entirely independent person if he remains dissatisfied with the action taken by the Health Service authority. A commissioner would serve this independent function and would reinforce the rights of those who use the Health Service, without detracting from the responsibilities of the Health Service authorities or reflecting on the value of the work done by the staff of the service.
There will be a Health Service Commissioner for England, one for Wales and one for Scotland, but, initially at least, the three posts will be held by the same person. This is an important expansion of the machinery for the independent investigation of complaints for which the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration represents a proven precedent. It would be premature for the commissioner to be designated now. The Government think, however, that the work of the Health Service Commissioner and of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration should be


closely associated, and they recognise that there are strong arguments for considering whether these posts should all be held by the same person. Before reaching a decision on this, the views of the Select Committee on the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration will be sought. Appointment of the commissioner will be by Her Majesty by Letters Patent. In this and in his tenure of office, he will follow the precedent set by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, and will enjoy the same degree of independence in carrying out his functions. The Health Service authorities will continue to be responsible for investigating complaints made to them, as part of their general management responsibilities. The commissioner will consider only those complaints made by or on behalf of patients which have already been made to the responsible authorities and not been resolved to the complainant's satisfaction. Complainants, or those acting for them, will in all cases deal directly with the commissioner.
The commissioner will be responsible for investigating actions taken by or on behalf of the Health Service authorities where it is claimed that an individual person has suffered injustice or hardship through maladministration, or through a failure to provide necessary treatment and care. He will not, however, deal with complaints from staff about their pay and conditions of service, or with complaints concerning contracts or other commercial transactions. Nor will he investigate the actions of general medical and dental practitioners, pharmacists, ophthalmic medical practitioners and opticians, all of whom are not employees of the Health Service but are in contract with it. A statutory procedure already exists for examining complaints against them, and this will continue, without the involvement of the commissioner. In Scotland the commissioner will not deal with complaints falling within the jurisdiction of the Mental Welfare Commission.
Together with my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales, I have had thorough and constructive discussions with representatives of the medical profession about complaints bearing on the relationship between clinicians and patients. We have decided that the commissioner

should be precluded from investigating any action taken in the course of diagnosis, treatment or clinical care of an individual patient which, in the commissioner's opinion, was taken solely in the exercise of clinical judgment.
In cases coming within his jurisdiction, the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration does not look into complaints when the complainant has or had a right of appeal to a tribunal or a remedy by way of proceedings in a court of law, unless he is satisfied that in the particular circumstances of the case it is unreasonable to expect the complainant to resort or have resorted to it. The Health Service Commissioner will follow the same practice I would expect that he would need to use his discretion to investigate this type of case only on rare occasions.
The procedure under which the Commissioner will conduct investigations will be similar to that observed by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration. He will be required to send a report of the results of investigations to the complainant, to any person complained against and to the responsible health authorities. He will make an annual report, and may make special reports, to the Secretary of State, who will be required to lay them before both Houses of Parliament.
Legislation will be required to enable the Health Service Commissioner to be appointed.

Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we would wish to congratulate him on his realisation, following the publication of the Payne Committee's Report and the succession of reports that we have had on the scandals in our long-stay mental hospitals, that the establishment of an independent investigator external to the Health Service is imperative? Is he further aware that it would be tragic if we were now to throw away the opportunity to create a really effective form of external investigation? Although his statement is so long and detailed that it is impossible for us clearly to understand all its implications, does he appreciate that at first hearing it seems to have some disappointing and even alarming elements?
May I ask three questions? When the right hon. Gentleman says that a complaint must be made to the responsible


authority in the first place, is he not aware that if the complaints have first to be made by patients, relatives or nurses to the responsible authority, then, as the Payne Report, the Farleigh Report and the others have shown, many complaints will never be made, because patients are in many cases helpless and nurses go in fear of victimisation if they make a complaint? Is it not essential in view of the exceptional circumstances in the hospital service for there to be a right of direct access to the commissioner in the first place, formally or informally? Can we have the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that this will be possible, because otherwise we shall not avoid the sort of situation raised in recent reports?
Secondly, may I suggest that in view of these exceptional circumstances it would not be right to merge the posts of Health Service Commissioner and Parliamentary Commissioner? Thirdly, could the right hon. Gentleman elaborate on the rather obscure reference to the rights of investigation into complaints on the relationship between clinicians and patients? Can he give the House an assurance that there will be no limitation on the discretion of the commissioner to take up any complaint?
Finally, will he give an assurance that in view of the importance and complexity of this matter we can have a debate in the House before any final form of investigation is decided upon?

Sir K. Joseph: The question of a debate in the House will be met by the needs of the legislation required to bring about this commissioner. It is sensible that complaints should continue to be made first to the Health Service Authority, where in most cases they will be put right. In answer to the right hon. Lady's question, the knowledge by the Health Service authority that patients, their relatives or nurses will have access to the Health Service Commissioner if a complaint is either suppressed or not properly dealt with will surely remove any danger about suppression of complaints. No decision has yet been made on whether the post will be held separately or by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, and I am consulting the Select Committee about this. We decided after discussion with the doctors that it

would be intolerable for them to face a multiplicity of complaint procedures. They are already subject to procedures on clinical matters through the courts and the General Medical Council, as well as the perfectly satisfactory complaints procedure for family practitioners, opticians and chemists.

Sir R. Turton: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on announcing a long-overdue reform, may I ask him to explain the position that Members of Parliament would be in with this commissioner? It would appear that the channel is not to be, as it was with the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, through the Member of Parliament alone. How will he avoid the duplication of an hon. Member taking the matter up with a Minister at the same time as his constituent is taking the matter up with the Health Service Commissioner?

Sir K. Joseph: I hope that the House will recognise the difference between the two functions. The Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration is part of Parliament's supervision of the performance of Government Departments. The Health Service Commissioner is intended to be part of the fabric of the Health Service. I expect, although this will be subject to discussion during the passage of the legislation, that Members of Parliament faced with complaints suitable for the Health Service Commissioner would be wise to ask whether their constituent has first and foremost put the complaint to the Health Service Authority. If that has been done and the constituent is dissatisfied, he could then recommend him to go to the Health Service Commissioner.

Mr. David Steel: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that we on this bench warmly welcome his statement as something for which we have been pressing for some time? Will he also accept that we share the hesitation that has been expressed about his exclusion of medical practitioners and others from the scope of the commissioner's duties? When he talks about complaints on behalf of patients, does this include the possibility of a complaint by relatives of a deceased patient, not necessarily on behalf of the patient? Lastly, would he reflect that


it is probably undesirable to combine this job with that of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration precisely because of the difference that he has outlined?

Sir K. Joseph: We will certainly take that last point into account. I dealt with the hon. Gentleman's first point earlier. The answer to his second point about representations by relatives on behalf of a deceased patient is "Yes".

Mr. Brian Harrison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I warmly welcome the step that he has taken? Could he use this as an opportunity to make clear the liabilities of management committees following investigation of these complaints?

Sir K. Joseph: Management committees that come under the criticism of Health Service Commissioner will no doubt respond as do any others to criticism, by trying to put right that which has been criticised unless they feel there is nothing more to be done. The sanction here is public criticism of a public body.

Mr. Michael Stewart: While warmly congratulating the Secretary of State on this step, may I ask him two questions? First, would he accept that, although the proposed restrictions on the proposed commissioner's powers may be necessary at present, this House ought not to accept them as permanent and we must judge in the light of experience whether it might not be right to give the commissioner wider powers? Secondly, what would be the relationship between the proposed commissioner and the Select Committee of this House to which the present ombudsman reports?

Sir K. Joseph: I shall need to consider the last point raised by the right hon. Gentleman. As to his first question, the House will always want to be very careful to avoid multiplying the ways in which any individual can be subject to process. What we are excluding at the moment are those cases where anyone in the Health Service is subject to legal procedure or is already subject as a clinician to quite separate, existing sanctions. The House will always be careful to maintain that principle.

Sir B. Rhys Williams: May I thank my right hon. Friend most warmly for

his statement and express the hope that it will soon be followed by the necessary legislation? May I ask him to give consideration to the need for the commissioner to have jurisdiction to investigate complaints against institutions supported by local authorities?

Sir K. Joseph: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced only a few weeks ago that there is to be an ombudsman in connection with local government. That is the answer to my hon. Friend's question.

Mr. Conlan: While congratulating the Secretary of State, may I ask him two questions'? First will the commissioner be able to investigate complaints about the unequal distribution of consultants from area to area'? Secondly, will he be able to look into questions of the unfair and unequal distribution of financial resources within the regional authority areas and between district and district?

Sir K. Joseph: Yes, so far as these do not trench upon clinical decisions. The Health Service Commissioner may often have to reflect on the management use of resources made available to the service.

Dr. Stuttaford: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we wish to congratulate him very much on the announcement he has made, but does he realise that there is always a need for speed in investigating medical complaints because the staff of hospitals move from one hospital to another very quickly'? Will he reconsider his decision not to allow direct access to the commissioner by Members of Parliament?

Sir K. Joseph: I do not think that direct access by Members of Parliament—which surely would be indirect action concerning a patient—would speed the process at all. The complaint would go to the Health Service authority, and if the complainant were still unsatisfied he would have direct access to the commissioner.

Mr. Ellis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people feel that the only part of the tripartite services where there is an element of consumer sovereignty is the part administered by the local health authority? Will he take a leaf out of the book of the previous Administration and ensure that area health authorities will


have influence as representatives of the local authority?

Sir K. Joseph: That is a separate question, as I think the hon. Member knows.

Mr. Kinsey: Can my right hon. Friend tell us when this proposal will come into being as some cases pending consideration by the ombudsman are on medical matters which should be dealt with?

Sir K. Joseph: I am afraid that I cannot give my hon. Friend guidance on that. This will not be done in time to deal with existing complaints.

Mr. Russell Kerr: What staff has the right hon. Gentleman in mind for the new commissioner?

Sir K. Joseph: I cannot tell the hon. Member that yet.

Mr. Boscawen: Can my right hon. Friend say whether this procedure of appeal to an ombudsman will replace right of appeal to the Medical Services Tribunal? If not, cases will take a very long time before they are finally heard by the ombudsman.

Sir K. Joseph: I should like to look deeper into that question, but I think that the answer is "no"; it is a parallel process and does not affect the Medical Services Tribunal. I will write to my hon. Friend.

Dr. Miller: While welcoming the proposed appointment and congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on it, may I say that I think there will be considerable weakening of the authority of the commissioner if he does not have the ability or the right to investigate clinical complaints? I can appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's unwillingness to interfere in this sphere, but is he not aware that there are two spheres in which there could be cause for complaint by patients? The first is in the procedure of performing operations which prove either to have been unnecessary or to have been wrong operations. That is in the medical field. In the dental field there is the situation in which thousands of people are walking about this country with plastic monuments to the gross inefficiency of the dental profession because they have had teeth removed which need

not have been removed. Will the right hon. Gentleman again consider making it possible in the terms of reference of the commissioner for a direct complaint to be made in these fields?

Sir K. Joseph: I think the hon. Gentleman would find himself in a very small minority among the professions in taking the line he has taken. The House must remember that clinical judgments are already open to challenge by hospital authorities, the General Medical Council and the courts, and complainants already have recourse to them. We do not think we should add the commissioner. In any case, there should be a limit to the number of investigating bodies.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an indication of when he expects to introduce the necessary legislation and whether the commissioner can investigate complaints due to lack of co-ordination between hospital services, the hospital welfare services, and so on?

Sir K. Joseph: I cannot give an answer about the time when legislation will be introduced. The second question was a very good one. This will depend on the relationship as defined between the Health Service Commissioner and local ombudsmen as announced by the Prime Miniser.

Mr. Ross: Of course we are interested in this proposal, but some aspects are rather vague and rather limiting. The right hon. Gentleman said that there would be three commissioners—one for Scottish, one for Welsh, and one for English complaints—but that initially this appointment is to be held by one man. [An HON. MEMBER "A Scotsman."] Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how long this initial period is to last and what is the intention in future? Does he think that someone looking into the Scottish Health Service should report to an English Secretary of State?

Sir K. Joseph: The reports will be made separately to the Secretaries of State. If I had described the whole of this process I would have had to make a longer statement, and that I do not think the House would want. The Commissioner will report separately to the Secretary of State concerned.

Mr. Speaker: Mr. John Parker—

Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State made an announcement as to future debates.
Without touching on the substance of his statement at all, may I submit that in view of the many concerns expressed about the scope of the new appointment it would be wise for the Government to allow a debate to take place before they put the legislation into final draft? Otherwise when they bring the legislation forward they will be committed as a Government. May I urge through you that the Government should allow a debate on this proposal before the legislation is drafted?

Mr. English: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State did not say that the Parliamentary Commissioner has a jurisdiction over the hospital service and directly in the case of some hospitals in respect of which any complaint has gone so far as to reach his Department. There is some need for clarification.

Mr. Speaker: These are not matters of order, but may be matters for discussion at the time when the Bill is introduced, or before. This is not a matter for me.

Mrs. Castle: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You rather suddenly called my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker), who is to introduce the next business. This matter has been rather left in the air, first, as to when we can expect the legislation, and, secondly, as to when we can have another opportunity to clarify a whole number of unsatisfactory points. If we could have an answer on the two questions—the possibility of a debate and the time of the legislation—that would help the whole House.

Sir Harmer Nicholls: Is not this one of those matters which God made the usual channels to deal with?

Mr. Speaker: It is obvious that these are matters for discussion. The Leader of the House has been present and has heard most of this discussion. These are not matters of order. The point has been made in an alleged point of order, and there it must rest.

Oral Answers to Questions — QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS

Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. You will recollect, Mr. Speaker, that I gave you notice that I had a point of order on Questions and I thought that this was the appropriate time to raise it.

Mr. Speaker: I beg the hon. Member's pardon. He is quite right.

Mr. Lewis: I gave you notice, Mr. Speaker—perhaps not adequate notice—that I wanted to raise a point of order about the Notices of Questions and Motions yesterday, No. 62, with particular reference to page 4025. I tabled 18 similar Questions asking about the sinecures which 18 Peers of the Realm hold in another place.
Each of these 18 Questions, which were all accepted, referred at the end to the £8·50 "tax-free expense allowance". Strangely, in each Question the Table Office has left out the word "tax-free".
My Questions were based on the fact that the allowance is tax-free, and drew attention to the fact. The Table is, of course, entitled to put a Question in order, but surely not to leave out the most important part, which is based on fact.
This might have been a typographical error in only one Question, but I suggest that the Table is not entitled to delete from a Question something for which the hon. Member concerned takes responsibility, particularly when, as in this case, it is a statement of fact.

Mr. Speaker: I will certainly go into this matter and will deal with it either publicly, or privately, as seems to me correct.

INLAND WATERWAYS (IMPROVEMENT OF NAVIGATION)

4.1 p.m.

Mr. John Parker: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a central authority with powers to control navigation on all inland waterways in England and Wales.
The Department of the Environment has stated that it will adopt a policy based on a recent report to create regional group water authorities. It will replace 1,400 water supply and sewerage organisations with 10 by 1974. These water authorities are to be based on the catchment areas of the rivers. Most hon. Members will agree, I think, that this overhaul of our water supply and sewerage arrangements is long overdue and they will welcome the idea. All these new regional catchment area water authorities are to be under a National Water Council under the Minister.
The Department is, however, proposing to abolish the British Waterways Board and to divide the canals between seven regions, some of which have few or no canals. There is need for a national water authority to control all inland navigation, not only on the canals, as in the past, but on the rivers as well. If we are to modernise the amenity and transport purposes of our waterways, such a body is essential. It should be responsible directly to the Secretary of State. Its chairman should be a member of the National Water Council, and it should control all navigation activities of the regional boards.
Why is such a body necessary? First, through navigation needs to be controlled centrally. Canals are not limited by watersheds. Through routes run from one river basin to another. They are fed on one side of a tunnel by reservoirs on the other side and there are tunnels between watersheds. Unitary organisation of waterways is necessary from the point of view of navigation. What is true of canals is also true of river navigation.
It would be necessary to have all-in licences for boats. Some people seem to think that boating happens only over a small, limited area. People who want to boat on a week's or a fortnight's holiday want to travel extensively along canals or rivers, from one part of the country to another, and they want to

find uniform conditions wherever they go.
At present, the canals are supported partly by income from the sale of water and so on and partly by the hiring out of warehouses and other facilities. But there is a grant of about £2 million from the central Government. What will happen to the financing of navigation in future? Is this grant to be abolished? It appears from statements which have been made that grants are expected to come from local sports council or from the people who use the canals. Without some substantial Government grant, the whole system built up or brought back into being in the last few years will collapse.
The main interest of any reasonable water authority must be the supply of water and sewerage. Navigation is bound to be low on its list of priorities. One cannot expect the users of waterways at present to find any very large revenue towards improving waterways or keeping them going.
On the Broads, there are no locks t be maintained. There has been a steady increase in the number of people using the Broads. Licence fees have brought in a bigger and bigger revenue and a great deal of money has been spent to improve the Broads, to deepen some channels and to open up others which have become silted. But this has happened only because there has been a growth of usage of the Broads and because various facilities have been provided to make it possible. One cannot expect usage to develop without facilities being provided—and that can be done adequately only if the Government are prepared to put up a considerable amount of money.
The Government's present proposals to abolish the British Waterways Board are having an unfortunate effect. Investment in trying to develop traffic on the waterways has dropped. Many local authorities have come forward with grants for canals in recent years and many canals are in the process of renovation as a result. This development, and the commercial development of our waterways, seem likely to stop.
The Waterways Board has got agreement for a scheme for deepening the South Yorkshire Canal and opening up that area, and also for putting a container station at Winsford in Cheshire.


It also has proposals for widening and deepening the Grand Union Canal up to Watford, where there will also be a container station. All these proposals are likely to be at risk unless a centralised water authority is kept in being.
The Water Amenities Advisory Council has done a great deal towards a survey of the remainder waterways and has made recommendations about which should be restored, which should be scrapped and whether some should be confined to angling and so on. All this work will have been in vain if the policy of opening up our waterways is not continued.
The Government do surprising things. They have given a grant to the Upper Avon Trust to bring that waterway back into use. Why not have a general policy on this matter instead of limited grants for particular purposes?
There is an important future for our waterways in leisure use. Many young people intensely enjoy mucking about in boats, whether canoes, sailing boats, motor cruisers or whatever it may be; and we need to develop all these waterways to best advantage in the near future if they are to be there in the years to come, because at present many waterways are on the point of disappearing.
This is the critical moment when we need to take action to retain and develop our waterways. This is the time at which

it is necessary for the Government to give a lead in this matter. Personally, I feel very strongly that by the ending of the British Waterways Board and by the refusal to set up a central authority to control and develop navigation on our waterways, great harm is being done to their future and to the future use of our waterways both for commercial purposes and for recreation.
I trust that the Government will think again on this matter and that this House will support this Bill, which has the backing of all the amenity authorities in the country who are interested in the future of our waterways and their enjoyment by the coming generation.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Denis Howell, Mrs. Lena Jeger, Mr. Nigel Spearing, Sir Geoffrey de Freitas, Mr. Peter Hardy and Mr. John Parker.

INLAND WATERWAYS (IMPROVEMENT OF NAVIGATION)

Bill to establish a central authority with powers to control navigation on all inland waterways in England and Wales, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 25th February, and to be printed. [Bill 86.]

Orders of the Day — EMPLOYMENT MEDICAL ADVISORY SERVICE BILL

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

Clause 1

ESTABLISHMENT, ORGANISATION AND FUNCTIONS OF EMPLOYMENT MEDICAL ADVISORY SERVICE

4.12 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith): I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 3, line 3, at end insert:
'but no particulars or information about any person which may be furnished to an adviser in pursuance of this subsection shall (without the consent of that person) be disclosed by the adviser otherwise than for the efficient performance of his functions'.
The effect of this Amendment is to limit disclosure by the employment medical adviser of information about young persons obtained from the school health service. It arises directly from the discussion we had in Standing Committee when, as those who were members of that Committee will remember, two Amendments were put forward from the Opposition Benches to Clause 1(6), which is concerned with the duty of the local education authority to give employment medical advisers particulars of their young persons' school record for which the employment medical adviser asks. One of these Amendments from the other side proposed that the word "reasonably" should be inserted in subsection (6) to make clear that information for which the medical adviser could ask was to be limited to that which he might reasonably require for the efficient performance of his functions. I was very happy to be able to accept that Amendment, and it is now incorporated in the Bill.
The other Amendment which was proposed from the Opposition Benches was more difficult. This was the proposition which came from the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones), whom I am very pleased to see in his place, that this information should be given in con

fidence to the employment medical adviser. Perhaps I might quote what the hon. Gentleman said in his very reasonable speech on that occasion:
I think that a lair amount of information about a person's medical state should be made available to responsible people but what worries me is that it seems to be an open-ended commitment, that no limitation is being imposed upon how far down the line the information about a person's medical history shall be given."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 27th January, 1972 c 177]
I explained on that occasion that, while I appreciated the reasoning behind the Amendment, I had real difficulty in accepting it as it stood because the use of the phrase "in confidence" might well mean that employment medical advisers were debarred in certain circumstances from consulting even their own medical colleagues when they wished to do so; and I am sure that it is not the wish of any hon. Member on either side that that should be so. But I promised the hon. Member that I would look at it with my experts to see whether some suitable form of words could be achieved to suggest the spirit of what the hon. Member intended.
We have now come forward with this Amendment. Its effect is that the medical adviser may disclose information obtained from the school health service only for the purpose of enabling him to perform his functions efficiently. In the unlikely event—and I stress the word "unlikely"—of his requiring to disclose it for any other purpose he must obtain the consent of the person concerned. I hope the House will feel I have been able to meet the feeling which was expressed in the Committee at the time of the previous discussion. Although I was advised that the previous drafting of the Bill was quite sufficient we wished to make it absolutely clear and to go along with the hon. Member and his hon. Friends in stressing that point; and I feel perhaps we have now done this in this Amendment.

4.15 p.m.

Mr. Lewis Carter-Jones: I really welcome this. We put down what was really a probing Amendment, and we are most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for improving it in such a way that it is, I believe, acceptable to all of us. On physical health, people do not mind


admitting that they have certain limitations, but if there are emotional strains or psychological or mental factors in their make-up they are all very concerned and do not want people to know since that might jeopardise future employment prospects. I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has found a formula which covers this, and I congratulate him on the wording of his new Amendment and thank him for it.

Dr. Alan Glyn: I would like briefly to congratulate my hon. Friend on dealing with what might have seemed in Committee a rather unimportant point. I can assure him that it is important that as far as is humanly possible the confidence between a medical man and his patient is maintained, except in so far as is necessary under this Bill. I very much welcome the change of wording to which my hon. Friend has kindly agreed.

Mr. Harold Walker: I am happy to add my own expression of grateful appreciation for the extent to which the hon. Gentleman has met what was obviously the very persuasive argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones). The form of words that is now proposed to be put in the Bill is a very reasonable compromise, and we are grateful.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Dudley Smith: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 3, line 26, at end add:
'and the reference to those (other than the Secretary of State) concerned with the health of employed persons and of persons training for employment shall be taken to include oganisations of employers or employed persons and associations of such organisations'.
Throughout the Committee stages we endeavoured to be as conciliatory and helpful as possible, and I believe there was general agreement on both sides that this is a worthwhile and necessary Bill; therefore, it had general support.
I was asked to look particularly at the matter which is now dealt with by this Amendment, which makes clear that the bodies to be informed and advised by the employment medical advisory service on the health of employed persons include organisations with employees or employed persons and associations of such organisations. When we discussed this in Standing Committee, the hon. Member

for Consett (Mr. David Watkins) moved an Amendment to specify that trade unions and other organisations of workers should be bodies which would definitely be advised by the medical advisory service.
I wish to make absolutely clear today that it is certainly our intention that organisations of employees, whether registered trade unions or not, and likewise organisations of employers should be able to obtain advice and information from the service. They are in this particular context, and there is no discrimination at all where these unions and organisations are concerned. This will be spelled out very clearly in the leaflets and booklets which we are to produce to give publicity to the new service when the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament.
I do not think the Amendment proposed in Committee was necessary because organisations of employees are quite clearly among the others concerned with health of employed persons referred to in Clause 1(1). But hon. Members opposite pressed the point very strongly, as they were entitled to do, and stressed the rôle of the trade unions in this matter, and it was a point appreciated by both sides of the Committee during the debate.
The result is this Amendment, which I commend to the House. Its effect is similar to that of the Amendment tabled in Committee by the hon. Member for Consett, with the addition of the reference to organisations of employers and associations of employers' organisations. It makes no distinction between registered trade unions and other organisations of employees, just as the service itself makes no distinction.
I do not think there is any strict legal necessity for the Amendment, but it is right for me to acknowledge the efforts made by trade unions and employers' organisations over the years to promote better working conditions and safeguard the health of their members. A great deal of the work which goes on is unsung, but anyone who has been involved in either or both sides of industry will know of it. We regard this as one of the most important aspects of the legislation, and I hope, bearing in mind the comments which have been made, that the House will incorporate the Amendment so that there is no dubiety that trade unions and organisations of workers are included.

Mr. Harold Walker: As the Under-Secretary has said, a similar Amendment was moved in Committee by my hon Friend the Member for Consett (Mr. David Watkins), who is elsewhere in the House today and cannot be with us. He has asked me to express on his behalf how much he appreciates the Under-Secretary of State's ready response to the persuasive argument deployed by him in Committee.
The Amendment was pressed upon the Under-Secretary by almost all hon. Members on the Opposition side of the Committee. I should like to comment on the circumstances which made it necessary for us to press for this Amendment with so much vigour. One of the consequences of the Industrial Relations Act, which I am sure will be referred to again and again in the weeks, months and years to come, is the twilight world that unregistered trade unions will find themselves in in terms of their rights under the law. It was necessary for us to ask not only that it should be placed beyond doubt that trade unions had a right to the information that the employment medical advisory service might make available, but also that this information should be equally available to organisations of workers who apparently will have a very doubtful legal status in the future.
I regret that the Under-Secretary of State did not choose the simpler form of words we put to him. He will recall that one of our arguments was that the Bill was unnecessarily abstruse and confusing in some aspects, and we all agree on the need for simplicity in legislation. What we asked him to do was merely to insert—

Mr. Dudley Smith: The hon. Gentleman, having been in office, will know the complications which Ministers always face. Although I was attracted by the hon. Gentleman's original Amendment, I have been advised that the Amendment now before the House is more comprehensive, and this is what we are trying to achieve in the interests of all work-people.

Mr. Walker: I take the hon. Gentleman's word for it, but I sometimes wonder whether we tend to treat parlia

mentary draftsmen as witch doctors who apply some particular magic that we should not question. The form of words which we proposed achieved the same objective more simply.
I am glad to accept the hon. Gentleman's assurance on the form of words now put forward, and equally glad to accept his assurance that the informative booklet which the Department intends to publish when the Bill is enacted will repeat the assurances he has given today and put beyond any doubt that organisations of workers which are unregistered trade unions will have an equal right to the information that is available through the employment medical advisory service
I appreciate the tribute paid by the Under-Secretary of State to the rôle played by the trade unions in promoting the health and safety of workers in industry and services generally. We pointed this out in Committee, and I am glad to hear the Under-Secretary of State echoing our words this afternoon.
Having expressed my caveat about the form of words, may I, speaking not only for my hon. Friend the Member for Consett but for this side of the House, express our appreciation of the way in which the Under-Secretary of State has once again responded constructively and helpfully to the arguments which we put in Committee?

Mr. Carter-Jones: I welcome the remarks made by the Under-Secretary of State about the work done by the trade unions. My union, the Transport and General Workers' Union, has done a tremendous amount of work on the safety of employees. We pride ourselves on the amount of work we do to recover money for people who have been injured. This is known as blood money, but we are not so concerned about collecting blood money as we are about ensuring the safety of our workers.
It sometimes happens that a rare case, especially where there is disablement, can be identified. I realise that the hon. Gentleman cannot legislate against this, but I should like it to appear on the official record that where information is passed through which


enables anyone to be identified that information will be used with very great care.

Mr. Dudley Smith: I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said and see that it is looked at very closely.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Harold Walker: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 3, line 26, at end add—
(10) Where an employment medical adviser is obstructed in the execution of his powers or his duties the person obstructing him shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding £500, and where an employment medical adviser is so obstructed in a factory the occupier of that factory shall be guilty of an offence.

Mr. Speaker: It will be for the convenience of the House to take also Amendment No. 4, in Schedule 1, page 8, line 32, leave out paragraph 4.

Mr. Walker: It is right that we should take the two Amendments together, because Amendment No. 4 is consequential upon Amendment No. 3. I should not like it to be assumed that because these two Amendments are the only ones we have tabled we are otherwise entirely satisfied with the Bill. There are a number of minor points on which we have reservations. We expressed these reservations fairly fully in Committee and have no wish to delay the progress of this modest but useful Bill.
The issue involved in this Amendment is a matter of substance and importance. It echoes not only our debate in Committee but a point to which I have made repeated references in the House during the last 12 months. Not only is the maximum penalty provided in the Bill for obstruction of the employment medical adviser too low, but the general level of penalties in the broad area of industrial health and safety matters is far too low.
The penalty provided in the Bill is derived directly from the Factories Act penalty for obstruction of the work of the factory inspector. The employment medical adviser will in future be the person who is at present called the medical factory inspector. It is impossible to avoid reference to the Factories Act because the penalty is in Schedule 1

of the Bill which itself is largely a reproduction of Sections 146 and 147 of the Factories Act. The Schedule defines the powers of the employment medical adviser and the penalty for obstruction.
In Committee we argued that the maximum penalty should be not £20 but £50. That figure was chosen primarily to take into account the inflation which has taken place since the penalty was originally determined in the 1961 Consolidation Act. So far as I can check back, it was £5 in 1937, and my assessment of inflation since then is a very moderate one, particularly in view of the roaring inflation during the past 18 months.
In Standing Committee my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Dr. David Owen) said that I was being far too moderate and went on to present powerfully convincing arguments for the ceiling being £500. That is what we are talking about here, not the level of penalty that ought to be opposed in specific and particular cases, but the ceiling. As regards specific cases, quite clearly that is for the discretion of the courts, but the present ceiling of £20 is a derisory, even a contemptible, figure, like the other penalties in the Factories Act.
4.30 p.m.
The maximum penalty of £300 provided for in the Factories Act leads to a tendency, as I said in Standing Committee, for the prosecution not of major employers, for whom not only £20 or £50 but £300 and even £500 is a derisory figure and, therefore, of little significance. Therefore the Factories Act has a built-in tendency to encourage instead the prosecution of small employers. The factory inspector or, as it will be in the future in this particular area of industrial health and welfare, the employment medical adviser, may find himself compelled to reason, as I have heard argued in the past when it seemed there was scope for a prosecution, what is the point of prosecuting, what is the point of spending time on a lengthy period of preparation and a lengthy period in court, what is the point of taking up the time of the court, when the maximum penalty that can be imposed is one of little consequence to the employer or the occupier of the premises? That argument tends to lose its validity the lower down the scale we go. The smaller the employer,


the smaller the turnover and the capital, the more impact the penalty will have, and the adviser may find himself compelled to say "In this particular case it will be useful. Therefore, I will have recourse to the court". Leaving the penalty as it is, therefore, merely encourages prosecutions against the small employer, for whom the sum involved may have significance, rather than against the larger occupiers or employers.
I am not necessarily arguing that prosecution ought to be the automatic recourse for the adviser or inspector. It has been a long-established practice that factory inspectors and the Factory Inspectorate seek to persuade people to do good rather than punish them for doing bad. By and large, that has been a good rule, but undoubtedly there have been cases where prosecutions ought to have been instituted but have not, merely because the penalty was so derisory and insignificant that the factory inspector saw little point in pursuing that course.

Dr. Glyn: I understand the hon. Member's argument, in which he is really pointing out that it is only the small companies that are going to be penalised, but would he not agree that even if the penalty were made £1,000 it still would not catch the extremely big companies? It is terribly difficult to decide at exactly what point this particular penalty should be set.

Mr. Walker: If we accept that argument we have to accept the invalidity of including in any Statute provision for a fine of any magnitude for either deterrent or punitive purposes. One cannot help comparing this with the level of fines provided for in the recent Industrial Relations Act, in which the maximum fine was graduated according to the assumed resources of the offending party. That, it seems to me, is the logic of the hon. Gentleman's intervention although it was not exactly what he was suggesting—that there should be a scale of fines appropriate to the resources of the miscreant. The Industrial Relations Act provides for the imposition of a fine as large as £100,000 for an offence committed by a massive trade union.

Mr. Dudley Smith: In wholly different circumstances.

Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman says "In wholly different circumstances"; but we are talking about the principle involved, and the principle is no different at all. Indeed, under the Industrial Relations Act for those bodies which are not registered trade unions or even for individuals the penalty can be open-ended and may well run into sums considerably in excess of the £100,000 to which I referred.

Mr. Dudley Smith: We spent many hours debating this point in this Chamber—that as far as the Industrial Relations Act is concerned they are not fines but civil damages, whereas this is a question of prosecution for criminal offences in which, quite legitimately, there are fines imposed by a judicial court.

Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman's euphemisms do not pacify any trade union leader in this country. Whether the hon. Gentleman calls them damages or not, the fact is that they are awards of compensation that will be made by a judicial body, the National Industrial Relations Court, and quite obviously they are intended to have a deterrent or a punitive effect. That is the purpose of a fine; so they will have precisely the same effect and purpose as a fine, and the use of different words does not blur the reality at all. Some of us are getting sick and tired of the Government's attempts to mask the reality of what they impose on the trade union movement by the use of euphemisms: unfair trade practices for what are clearly breaches of the law; awards of compensation for what are quite clearly fines; orders for what are quite clearly diktats. I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench so that he can listen to what I am saying. I thought he would have heard enough of the truth from this side of the House on this issue, but if he wants more we can give him it.
I have contrasted the pitiful, derisory, contemptible, insignificant level of the maximum fines provided for in this Bill with what the right hon. Gentleman is providing for in his Industrial Relations Act. But, turning from that, compare it, for example, with another area—-the criminal law. For shooting a single pheasant in Norfolk a magistrate imposed a fine of £75. I should like the hon. Gentleman to mull that over and contrast it with what he is providing here. The


employment medical advisory service will be dealing with situations such as that at Avonmouth, and there are other similar situations in industry in which the employment medical advisory service will have a rôle to play in the future, when it may be of crucial importance to the lives of people engaged in industry that the service is not obstructed in any way in the performance of its duties and where an employer will not be deterred by a fine of £20. I ask the hon. Gentleman to mull that over in his mind.
In our view too low a penalty would detract also from the prestige and authority which we believe the Act and the new service should have and which ought indeed to be attached to the Factories Act and the factory inspectorate.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Having listened to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) for the last 10 minutes, I feel that he was making a valiant effort on a case which he really did not take terribly seriously himself. It was probably just bubble and squcak. There is something to be said for a review of the fines that are imposed through the Factories Act. If this Bill is to be kept in line with the provisions of the Factories Act, then this legislation should contain the same penalties as those in that Act. If we are to review the fines, then they should be reviewed in both pieces of legislation. It is another matter as to whether this will be done in due course by the Government, and the situation needs to be examined.
I do not see how medical officers will be restrained in carrying out their jobs, as seems to be assumed in the Amendment. I served for some time on the management committee of a hospital board, I was chairman of the establishment committee, and therefore had a good deal of contact with the medical staff in the hospital. I can assure the hon. Member for Doncaster that there is a no more independent body of men than medical officers, whether they be in hospitals, private practice or factories. I cannot imagine medical officers who work in industry to be any less independent than they are outside. If there is one occasion when laymen find it difficult to argue it is when they are opposed by a group of medical officers. One cannot argue too strongly when faced by those who are

so expert in their own subject. Therefore, if a medical officer felt particularly strongly about something which was happening in the works, it would be unlikely that even the managing director would be able to exert his will against the medical officer's own view.

Mr. Carter-Jones: We are talking not about medical officers of health, but about the employment medical advisory service trying to obtain access to private property. It must be remembered that that service will not have the same rights as local medical officers of health.

Mr. Lewis: I accept that, but the Amendment is being argued on the ground that it strengthens the powers of medical staff engaged in the industrial service. The point is that the fine procedure is a long-stop and will be unlikely to be required in any event. I am saying that the influence of the medical personnel will be greater than the influence of those who may in some way seek to restrain them.
Any responsible company will accept that there is a certain odium attached to a fine. The last thing a firm would wish to do is to find itself in court charged with interfering with medical advice. Furthermore, any such firm may well find itself having to pay the costs in any proceedings. It is making heavy weather of the matter to suggest that the smallness of the fine would not be a sufficient form of restraint.

4.45 p.m.

Mr. Carter-Jones: I agree in part with the remarks of the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis). However, he knows full well that there are many gentlemen in the City who day after day park their cars and daily pay £1 or £2 in fines for the privilege of doing so, and think that it is cheap at the price. There is no publicity and their offence is never made public. Personally, I should have liked to see another nought added to the fine in the Amendment so as to make it £5,000. However, I think the figure of £500 is not unreasonable, and it is not a small amount. If a factory owner or managing director attempts to keep out an employment medical adviser, then the fact that he has to pay a fine of £500 is likely to attract attention. It will not break


him, but he will be conscious of the need to keep his good name.
I hope that the Minister will have a death-bed repentance on this Amendment. I trust he recognises that this is a fair Amendment and will advise the Committee to accept it. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be reasonable.

Mr. Dudley Smith: I always endeavour to be reasonable, as the House will know. Up until this moment of time our proceedings have been all sweetness and light, but I am afraid that we must part company over this Amendment, for reasons which I shall endeavour to advance in detail. I say at the outset that I am afraid that I cannot accept the Amendment.
There are three main reasons why the Amendment must be turned down. One is a legal reason; the other two are practical reasons. I appreciate what hon. Members opposite are trying to get at. I said in Committee that I had a certain amount of sympathy with them on this point, but there are particular reasons why this provision cannot be amended. This does not mean that the figure of £20 must prevail for all time and that there cannot be a revision at some future time.
I wish to deal in some detail with the drafting point made by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker). I in no way wish to criticise the hon. Gentleman, but would only point out that his argument shows the deep waters into which one can plunge when dealing with drafting matters. There is an inability on the part of those who are not skilled Parliamentary draftsmen fully to follow through the consequences.
In paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 in the Bill as drafted the penalty for obstructing a medical adviser is £20. That is the same penalty as that which currently obtains for obstructing a factory inspector; indeed, Schedule 1 reproduces part of Section 146 of the Factories Act. I explained in Committee that it was not possible then to accept any Amendment to increase the penalty because Schedule 1 is an extract from the Factories Act and the quoted text cannot be altered without making a nonsense of the rest of the text in the Factories Act. However, the hon. Gentleman seeks to delete paragraph (4) from the Schedule and to insert it as an

entirely new subsection in Clause 1. At the same time he wishes to increase the penalty for obstruction from £20 to £500.
My first ground for not accepting the Amendment is that it is legally defective. The first part of the Amendment says that
Where an employment medical adviser is obstructed in the execution of his powers or his duties the person obstructing him shall be guilty of an offence and be liable to a fine not exceeding £500 …
I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman says that that is the ceiling. Nevertheless, it is the stated total of £500, and the person referred to in that phrase could be either a worker or a factory occupier.
The Amendment goes on:
and where an employment medical adviser is so obstructed in a factory the occupier of that factory shall be guilty of an offence".
The Amendment does not lay down any penalty for the occupier of a factory in such circumstances. Therefore, the occupier of a factory would not be penalised for any obstruction in his factory unless he committed the offence.
The Amendment, as drafted, would weaken the Bill. The reference to obstructing an employment medical adviser is contained in Section 146(4) of the Factories Act, 1961, as set out in Schedule 1. Clause 1(5) provides that the provisions of Schedule 1 are to have effect as if an employment medical adviser were a factory inspector, and the relevant provisions of Section 146 of the Factories Act will apply to him. That means that under Section 156 of the Factories Act an occupier of a factory would be liable to a fine of £60 for obstruction of an employment medical adviser. Indeed, it will be seen that it is fully quoted in Section 156.
By removing that paragraph from the Schedule, so divorcing it from the other provisions of the Factories Act, the Opposition will relieve the occupier of any penalty for obstruction which is carried out in his factory. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite will agree that that is most undesirable, and a matter which they do not wish to achieve. I certainly support them in that view.
There is a further difficulty. Schedule 1 also includes a quotation from Section 147 of the Factories Act which refers back to Section 146(4). If we delete


Section 146(4) from Schedule 1, this reference will no longer have any relevance. Therefore, the Amendment is defective in its drafting and on that ground alone could not be accepted, even if I were predisposed to accept it as moved.
I know what the Opposition are seeking to achieve. I do not wish to make a debating point out of it, because the waters of legal drafting are dark. However, I note the objective which is advanced by the Opposition.
I oppose the Amendment on two other grounds. The related point is important because it approximates to the powers granted at present to factory inspectors. The duties of the factory inspector, related to those of the employment medical adviser, are reproduced in Schedule 1. The penalty for obstructing a factory inspector is £20. Hon. Members on Second Reading, in Committee and here today have many times said that the factory inspectors and the employment medical advisers will work closely together. Surely it would be anomalous and would create difficulties if they were obstructed in a factory and the penalty for obstructing the inspector was a mere £20 whereas the penalty for obstructing an employment medical adviser was £500. There would be enormous inequality leading to a great deal of difficulty.
I remind the Opposition—again, I do not wish to make a debating point, but it is relevant—that in their similar Bill, when they were in Government, the provision in this respect was £20, not £500. Inflation has not escalated that much since right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite were sitting on this side of the House.

Mr. Harold Walker: Whenever I have referred to the inadequate level of penalties required by the Factories Act, I have never stopped reproaching myself for not pressing more vigorously that they should be raised. I concede that the hon. Gentleman has levelled a legitimate rebuke at me, but it cannot exceed the reproach which I feel on that score. If he believes that the one major obstacle to acceptance of the Amendment as it stands, or the principle which it embodies, is the difference between the maxima which would be obtainable for obstruction of an em

ployment medical adviser and obstruction of a factory inspector under the Factories Act, I point out that there are powers within the Bill to amend the Factories Act. Indeed, the Bill amends the Factories Act. If, in another place, the hon. Gentleman wanted to bring the two into line, I can assure him that we would be more than happy to respond.

Mr. Dudley Smith: I cannot respond to the hon. Gentleman's invitation to amend the Factories Act. He brings me to my third point. The hon. Gentleman knows that the Robens Committee of Inquiry into Safety and Health at Work is reaching the fruition of its endeavours. Indeed, I expect that it will be considering the whole question of penalties in this sphere. The Committee may come forward with important recommendations covering the whole sphere of penalties in factories and over the whole range of health and safety at work. Surely it would be wrong to legislate piecemeal on this matter in advance of that Committee's report. Therefore, it is right that at this stage the penalties should be in line with those in the Factories Act. It may be that in due course the Factories Act will be amended and therefore this Bill will also be amended.
The third objection to the Amendment is that the figure of £500, even though it is a maximum, is completely out of scale with some of the penalties being imposed for obstruction under Acts and Bills which have been and are before the House. In the Fire Precautions Act, 1971, the fine for obstructing an inspector is £50. In the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Bill, which is currently before before the House, the fine for obstructing a water bailiff is £100. In the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, now before the House, the fine for obstructing an inspector under the Agriculture (Safety, Health and Welfare Provisions) Act, 1956, will be £100.
I agree that these figures are in excess of £20, but, for the reasons which I have stated, it would be extremely difficult to make employment medical advisers out of line and out of step with factory inspectors. The fact that the whole of this sphere is being reviewed by the Robens Committee means that it would not be a helpful step for the House to accept the Amendment. Indeed, while agreeing that there may be a case in


due course for increasing the penalty of £20, it is sensible to reproduce this part of the Factories Act as it is at this time. In those circumstances, again bearing in mind the defective drafting of the Amendment, we should not be wise to accept the Amendment.

Mr. Carter-Jones: It may be that fisheries and such things are important. However, we are talking about environments in which people's health can be ruined. This is of far greater importance than any other example which the hon. Gentleman quoted. Will he please take this into account?

Mr. Dudley Smith: I appreciate that point. I know full well the hon. Gentleman's sincere feelings on that point. He has spoken on it many times in the House. I generally agree with most of the points he makes. However, while it is true that we cannot equate the Bill with some of those Acts and Bills, there is a logical case for trying to keep in step penalties for the same type of offence across the board and not having one which shows a great disparity compared with the others. I would agree if this were the last word on the subject, but, as I have tried to explain, the Robens Report is imminent. Some important matters of substance may emerge from Robens, not only in this context, but in many others which we have discussed, and in consequence we shall have to take them into account.
It would be wrong now to fix an arbitrary penalty outside the provisions of the Factories Act only to find in due course that we have to revise it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) said in his helpful intervention, it is not only a question always of a penalty; it is very important sometimes to take account of the publicity which results from events of this sort. The damage this can do to such undertakings is very relevant.
I realise that hon. Members opposite are not satisfied on this point, and they may wish to return to it on a future occasion. We will look with the utmost seriousness at the recommendation which will come to us from the Robens Committee in connection with the Factories Act and allied Acts, if the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament. In these circum

stances, I must advise my hon. Friends to reject this Amendment.

5.0 p.m.

Mr. Harold Walker: With the leave of the House, may I say that I do not think I have ever heard such an unconvincing case nor seen a Minister shoot himself down so effectively as the Under-Secretary when, in quoting the analagous examples from recent Statutes, he gave four examples, one of which concerned the obstruction of a water bailiff in the execution of his duties for which a fine of £100 could be imposed. What an extraordinary contrast between, for example, the obstruction of someone who may have a statutory obligation to investigate a situation such as that at Avonmouth and the water bailiff seeking to perserve the trout of a well-heeled landlord or someone like that.
I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's strictures about the drafting of the Amendment. It is a long-standing convention of the House that while Ministers may well have to express criticism of the principle and the detailed form of drafting of an Amendment, they deal with its spirit.
If the arguments that have been advanced in support of it are sufficiently cogent to commend themselves to the House, the Minister expresses his willingness to reconsider it and in subsequent stages to see whether he can accommodate the argument. The Under-Secretary has not shown any indication of willingness to do this. I do not want to delay the proceedings, and I shall not therefore ask my hon. Friends to go into the Lobby to support my Amendment.
Once again, however, we have impressed upon the Under-Secretary—and I am glad his right hon. Friend was here to listen to my argument again—that we are very dissatisfied with the general level of penalties provided for offences concerning industrial health and safety. We hope that in making their recommendations Lord Robens and his Committee will take account of the observations which frequently and increasingly are being made in the House. I cannot withdraw my Amendment because it is a matter of principle.
This might well be the last occasion on which we express a few words about this modest but very useful Measure. I


hope the Bill will speedily reach the Statute Book. I offer my very bust wishes to the service and those who participate in what I am sure will be its very useful work in industrial health and welfare.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, That the Bill be now read the Third time [Queens Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified].

Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third Reading), and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

WAYS AND MEANS

Orders of the Day — EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES

5.6 p.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): I beg to move,
That any Act of the present Session to make provision in connection with the enlargement of the European Communities to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar, may include provision—

(a) for giving effect to any charge to taxation of those Communities, and for the imposition and alteration of customs duties by order of the Treasury;
(b) for the payment into the Consolidated Fund or National Loans Fund of sums received by any Minister of the Crown or government department.

I understand it is convenient to debate with it the related Money Resolution:
That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision in connection with the enlargement of the European Communities to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the charge on the Consolidated Fund or National Loans Fund of such sums as may be specified in the Act, being sums required to meet payments to any of the Communities or to Member States or to the European Investment Bank (or to redeem notes or obligations issued or created in respect of obligations to make such payments); and
(b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenses not so charged of any Minister of the Crown or government department, being expenses incurred under or by virtue of the Act or the treaties therein referred to.

The Ways and Means Resolution is necessary because the European Com

munities Bill proposes certain charges upon the people. The Money Resolution is similarly necessary because the Bill proposes charges on public funds. Both Resolutions are therefore enabling in that they are essential prerequisites to the consideration of this most important Bill in Committee. Both are limiting also in that they fix an upper limit to the charges that the Bill may impose on the people or on public funds, as the case may be. Thus, I am advised that if the House accepts the Resolutions it will be in order to discuss in Committee or on Report any Amendment to the financial Clauses of the Bill which does not actually increase the charges on the people or on public funds at present appearing in those Clauses.
It is important that I should make this point at the outset. I recognise that some right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House object to the financial provisions of the Bill. Nothing in the Resolutions will prevent them from making those objections or moving Amendments to remove, curtail or impose conditions or restrictions upon these provisions at the appropriate stages of the Bill's progress through Parliament.
I now come to the purpose of the Resolutions, and I take first the Ways and Means Resolution. This founds the Clauses of the Bill authorising the levying of certain taxes, including customs duties from United Kingdom firms and individuals. Under the Treaty of Rome, as amended by later treaties, and by virtue of various regulations of the Communities, a variety of agricultural levies, coal and steel levies and customs duties must he raised and paid over to the Communities by member countries. It is therefore necessary for the House, in order to implement its decision to join the Communities, to provide by Act of Parliament for the raising of these levies and duties in this country.
The relevant Clauses are Clause 2(1) and subsections (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 5. Clause 2(1), as was repeatedly noted last week in the debate, covers among other things, directly applicable liabilities and obligations. These comprise agricultural levies under the common agricultural policy and the coal and steel levies due under Article 49 of the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty. Community legislation covering


these charges applies directly in member countries. Clause 2(1) makes the Community legislation enforceable in the United Kingdom.
Clause 5(1) covers, first, customs duties payable under the common customs tariff after the end of the transitional period and, second, customs duties for certain goods which are covered neither by the common customs tariff nor by any other directly applicable provision. This is intended to provide for the tariff on coal and steel products.
Clause 5(2) confers on the Treasury a power to make orders to cover imports where the Community has authorised a duty different from that in the common customs tariff or where a duty is allowed between member countries. Clause 5(5) contains an order-making power to cover duties chargeable during the transitional period. Those are the only taxing powers existing today to which the Bill and therefore the Resolution apply.
Of course, Clause 2(1)—this is what the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) may have had in mind when he murmured a moment ago—covers
…liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising…
It is in the nature of the Communities that they are developing organisations. For instance, within the ambit of the common agricultural policy new commodities may well come up for inclusion within the levy system, and for the existing commodities the levy rates are regularly changed. Therefore, it is necessary to make provision for such new levies and for such changes to be directly applicable in this country.
But it is right to go on to make two further points. Firstly, there are no express provisions in the treaty which contemplate levies and duties in other areas. Secondly, no new charges could be applied for the benefit of the Communities without the express approval of Parliament. In other words, charges producing own resources must be ratified by member countries before they can become applicable, and ratification would be by Order in Council under Clause 1(3).

Sir Robin Turton: Does that ignore, after 1978, the rate

of value-added tax throughout the Community?

Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising that. I shall deal with it in some detail in a few minutes.
As I have said, the charges comprising own resources, charges applied for the benefit of the Communities, would require ratification by the House under the Order in Council procedure under Clause 1(3). Entirely new charges not forming part of the own resources are always possible, but they could be made applicable only after the Community procedures had been followed. Before such a charge reached the stage of being a Community decision, the Government would have played a full part in the Council of Ministers. Parliament, too, would have had an opportunity to comment under the proposed arrangements for apprising members of draft regulations and directives proposed to the Council before they are adopted.

Mr. Eric Deakins: Would Parliament have a power of veto over any new taxation not specified in the Bill?

Mr. Jenkin: It is necessary to draw a distinction between what I have described and new taxation. We are talking about taxation directly charged upon the people, to use the time-hallowed phrase, which could be applied towards the Community's own resources. That would be subject to the Order in Council procedure. If the House does not accept a decision of the Communities in that form, that would throw into question the whole continuing membership of the Communities. So far as we are dealing with taxes which would not be own resources, but which would accrue to the Government of this country, it is possible for such taxes in the nature of the agricultural policy levies and the coal and steel levies—there are not others in contemplation in any of the treaties—to be applied directly by virtue of Clause 2(1).

Mr. Douglas Jay: If one of the existing levies—say, an agricultural levy—was raised in amount but was not a new levy in itself, would that require an Order in Council?

Mr. Jenkin: No. I understand that if it were, as the agricultural levies are, directly applicable, it is intended that Clause 2(1) should cover it. These are


part of the inescapable conditions of membership of the Community and adherence to the agricultural policy.

Mr. Jay: It would not then come before this House at all.

Mr. Jenkin: Except in so far as the preliminary Community procedures and the procedures under the Select Committee so provided.
But it is right to recognise just how narrow this direct taxing power is. Here I come to the point made by my right hon. Friend. Neither Clause 2(1) nor the Ways and Means Resolution covers, for instance, the value-added tax. By the Community decision of 21st April, 1970, the Communities' own resources will, by 1st January, 1975, comprise three items—the common agricultural policy levies, the common customs duties and the proceeds of a value-added tax at a rate not exceeding 1 per cent. I can give an assurance that the Ways and Means Resolution is not concerned with the last named of those.
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be introducing a value-added tax in his Budget this year, and the House will be able to debate the Finance Bill in the usual way. The charge on the United Kingdom taxpayer will arise under that Bill and not under the Resolution.

Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Is not that a temporary measure in the sense that ultimately there will be harmonisation between the Community and ourselves, if we are part of it, on the question of the levels of value-added tax? At that stage the discussions and arguments will take place as to the precise level. What happens then if we do not accept the levels agreed by the rest of the Community?

Mr. Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman is right when he talks about harmonisation, though that is not the phrase used in the decision of 21st April, 1970, which refers to its being assessed in a uniform manner. [Laughter.] This is important, because it is recognised, although discussion is going on on the subject in the Commission, that there may well be differences in the taxes as they apply in the different countries. I certainly do not envisage that it would ever be possible for a value-added tax to be a directly

applicable tax. I envisage—here I can only give the House the best possible view we can express at the time—that any subsequent changes to the tax as accepted by the House, if indeed it is accepted when the Finance Bill becomes law this year, changes to comply with a decision to harmonise the tax, would themselves require further legislation. They could not be made under the Bill.

Mr. John Mendelson: Apart from any future changes to which my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) referred, what about the position the Financial Secretary has now announced, well in advance of the Budget, that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will introduce the value-added tax? What if the House came to the conclusion by a majority that it did not want to accept that proposal? Would it be able to change that? If not, do we still need a Chancellor of the Exchequer? Would not a Second Under-Secretary be able to introduce a Budget?

Mr. Jenkin: A value-added tax imposing a charge on the citizens of this country can only be introduced if the appropriate legislation—not the Bill, not the Resolution—is passed by the House. The hon. Gentleman is posing a hypothetical question. Perhaps it is not necessary for me to answer at this stage.

Mr. Mendelson: Yes it is.

Mr. Jenkin: If the hon. Gentleman presses me on this, the answer is that, as with other Community obligations, if Parliament is not prepared to accept the obligations inherent in the decision it took in principle last October, it calls into question the continuance of the application and of the Communities as a whole, should we by then be a member. This, as has been stated and made perfectly clear, is the substance of the matter.
Perhaps I can reinforce my point. As I said, there can be no question of extending the system for handing over the proceeds of taxation to the Community without a fresh agreement between member States, that is to say, a treaty. An agreement between member States was needed to set up the present own resources system. Although the terms of the agreement are embodied in what is described as a Council decision, that of 21st April, 1970, Article 201 of the original Rome


Treaty, in pursuance of which the Council was acting, required that the Council's proposals be recommended to the member States for their adoption and, correspondingly, any extension of this financing system will be subject to the same procedure as is recognised in the terms of the existing decision. This means not only that the United Kingdom Government would have to consent but also that affirmative Resolutions would be needed from Parliament under Clause 1(3) of the Bill, as otherwise the Government would have no authority to hand over the necessary funds to the Community. Until the affirmative resolutions had been obtained under Clause 1(3), a new arrangement could not constitute a Community obligation for the purpose of Clause 2(3) and could not, therefore, be implemented by the Government.

Mr. Michael English: I entirely accept the hon. Gentleman's point, but surely he would agree that to be able to tax the British people by possibly a completely new tax by the mere agreement of the Council of Ministers followed by an Order in Council and one Resolution of the House is very different from our previous procedures whereby, for example, we study the Finance Bill in great detail when it imposes a tax over a period of months in any given year.

Mr. Jenkin: As the 1967 White Paper recognised, there are constitutional innovations. That was recognised.

Mr. English: The hon. Gentleman means that there is no scope for amendment.

Mr. Jenkin: But it must be recognised—I have tried to make this point—that in the treaties as they now stand there are no proposals covering commodities othen than agricultural and coal and steel commodities for levies corresponding to those which would now be directly applicable under Clause 2(1). That would only arise under an extension of the treaties, which would require the procedures of the House to become effective.
I emphasise what I have been saying because it is essential to recognise just how limited is the extent to which, by the Bill and by this Ways and Means Resolution, the Community can impose taxation directly on citizens of the United

Kingdom. Let me also emphasise that no one who supported the application to join can reasonably cavil at these consequences. It has been part of the Community system from the earliest years to have Community duties and levies—custom duties, agricultural levies and coal and steel levies.
Article 201 of the original Rome Treaty provides that
The Commission shall examine the conditions under which the financial contributions of Member States provided for in Article 200 could be replaced by the Community's own resources, in particular by revenue accruing from the common customs tariff when it has been finally produced.
It clearly contemplated that in due course the Community would have its own resources, in particular, revenue accruing from the common customs tariff, when in force, and that these own resources should replace the member State contributions provided for elsewhere in the Treaty. The Article required the Commission to submit proposals to that end.
Then we had Regulation 25 of 1962, which established the principle that at the single market stage the agricultural levies should belong to the Communities. Next:
In May, 1966…the Council agreed…that from July, 1967, to December, 1969, Member States will hand over to the Guarantee Section"—
of the guidance and guarantee fund—
sums equal to 90 per cent. of the proceeds of levies on agricultural imports.
That quotation is from the previous Government's White Paper of 4th May, 1967, on the basis of which the House voted on 10th May, 1967, to approve the Government's statement of intention to apply for membership.
On 22nd December, 1969, the Community reached agreement on the new system of Community financing envisaged by Article 201. This is the system of own resources which is now in force. It is described briefly in paragraph 8 and more fully in paragraph 18 of the previous Government's White Paper of February, 1970, Cmnd. 4280, "Britain and the European Communities. An Economic Assessment." It is clearly there stated that levies on agricultural imports and customs duties would be handed over to the Community. Clearly


Britain would be bound by the regulation from the end of the transitional period, for as paragraph 43 says
In the negotiations it will be necessary not only to settle our starting contribution to the Fund, but also to settle the transitional arrangements under which we approach paying our full share of the recently agreed Community financing arrangements.
It is abundantly clear, therefore, that the House knew, before applying for Membership, that joining the Community entailed accepting a system whereby Community duties are imposed on United Kingdom citizens and firms and handed over to the Community. That is what Clauses 2(1) and 5(1), (2) and (5) achieve.

Mr. John Mendelson: On that point, as the hon. Gentleman said that everyone knew, did the Prime Minister include that clear statement in the Conservative Party election manifesto in 1970?

Mr. Jenkin: With respect, I am not sure whether that was a particularly relevant intervention.

Mr. Mendelson: Give the answer—"Yes" or "No".

Mr. Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman knows that there has been a vast amount of literature—I have some of it with me—on the subject of our application to join. Perhaps it is a little unrealistic to suggest that all the details would have been spelt out in the manifesto.
It is perfectly clear that everyone in the House who professed to understand this matter knew all about it. Anyone who voted for the application was to have been taken to have known all about it, unless his vote was to be regarded as a frivolous nonsense. Anyone who voted in favour of the application in 1967 or 1970 cannot cavil at these terms on this ground, now that the necessary statutory provisions are before the House.
I turn now to the Money Resolution. As I explained, this is needed because the Bill provides for certain payments from public funds to the Communities and to Community institutions. These include, first, most of the levies and customs duties about which I have been speaking. They will eventually be paid over in full but a refund of 10 per cent. to cover the costs of collection will be made to member countries. Then—and here the Money Resolution goes a little wider than the

Ways and Means Resolution—the Money Resolution will cover the payment by the United Kingdom of the V.A.T. proceeds up to a 1 per cent. rate. As the House knows, all that we have so far is a Community directive of 1967 that member countries will introduce a V.A.T. system, and the decision of 21st April, 1970, that up to a 1 per cent. yield of such a V.A.T. assessed on a uniform basis, will constitute part of the Communities' own resources. As yet there are no common rules of coverage, no common rules of assessment and no common rates. In Articles 99 and 100 of the Rome Treaty, these would have to be agreed unanimously, and we shall be a full participating member by then. But when these are agreed and when the Communities issue a directive, and when the House has accepted separate legislation, the United Kingdom will be under an obligation to pay over to the Communities the proceeds of our V.A.T. up to a rate of 1 per cent., and this will replace the member State contributions provided for in the transitional period.
The Money Resolution goes wider than these payments which constitute the Community's own resources. It covers, in addition, the member State contribution, which is the residual element of the original revenue system, due to be phased out when the value-added tax provisions become effective.
Then there are various capital payments and loans due under Clause 2(3) of the Bill. They come under four heads: contributions to capital and reserves of the European Investment Bank, a contribution to the reserves of the Coal and Steel Community, loans to member States under the medium-term assistance scheme, and loans to the European Investment Bank. As my hon. Friend the Minister of State explained on Tuesday, the European Investment Bank raises almost all its funds in the Market. However, there is provision in its Articles for member States to lend to it and, accordingly, provision must be made in the Bill.
Here, I think, we come to the point raised in the Amendment. The Money Resolution provides that all these charges on public funds shall be charged directly on the Consolidated Fund, or alternatively, by Treasury direction, on the National Loans Fund. Last week's debate indicated that perhaps this did


not meet with universal approval. It has been argued that the sums or some part of them, perhaps, should be voted annually. Therefore, I put briefly the case for charging them on the Consolidated Fund. I say "briefly" because this is a matter which, as the Resolution stands, will be fully open to debate when the Bill reaches Committee.
The most important, in money terms, of our Community obligations is that to pay over our share of the budget. By virtue of the decision of 21st April, 1970, and the implementing Regulation of 2nd January, 1971, the levies and customs duties must be handed over within two months from the end of the month during which the levy or duty accrued due. In other words, these funds never really belong to the United Kingdom. By a continuous process throughout the year, they flow through the Consolidated Fund to the Community budget. The Community's entitlement to the money is absolute from the moment that a claim on the importer for the levy or the duty is established.

Mr. English: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that, while what he is saying must be true philosophically and while it would be wrong to refuse the money, the regulation that he has quoted says that it should be done by the constitutional procedures of each member State? Therefore, I suggest that, since it will in fact be done, presumably, by the Comptroller and Auditor General releasing from the Consolidated Fund or something of that character under the authority of the Bill, which is one constitutional procedure, it could be done equally well by the Comptroller and Auditor General releasing sums under the authority of Bills passed annually.

Mr. Jenkin: I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman will develop that point if he succeeds in catching your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I accept what he says about the constitutional authority. My point is that, bearing in mind the reality and the nature of these payments of levies and duties and the fact that they flow through the Consolidated Fund, I suggest that voting them annually would be wholly inappropriate.

Mr. Michael Foot: The hon. Gentleman has said that this Money Resolution went considerably wider in

that, in some respects, it covered the value-added tax, or will cover it. Will these processes of flow applying to the levies without this House having any possibility of intervening also apply to the value-added tax when it is fully constituted as part of the own resources"? Secondly, why would not it be just as convenient not to have this Money Resolution covering the V.A.T. but to deal with it when we deal with the substantive legislation dealing with the V.A.T., by which time everyone may have had a chance to examine what the tax means?

Mr. Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman will recognise that his first question is one which does not admit of an answer. The necessary Community decisions have not been taken. The only decision is that there should be a value-added tax in member countries, the decision that eventually up to a one per cent. rate would be applied to "own resources". How this will be done, what would be the procedures and how the uniform rate would be worked out is not a matter on which a decision has been reached.

Mr. Foot: I want to get this quite clear. Does that mean that the decision about how the money to be collected by means of the V.A.T. is to be handed over to the Community and whether there is to be any subsequent intervention by this House depends not upon a decision of this House but upon the Council of Ministers?

Mr. Jenkin: With respect, it is bound to depend on the decision of this House. The necessary changes in any value-added tax needed to take account of any subsequent decision of the Communities to make the decision of 21st April, 1970, effective would be bound to come before this House, otherwise we should simply not have the machinery to do it.

Mr. Foot: I am sorry to be tedious—

Mr. Jenkin: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will seek an opportunity to develop his point later, otherwise my speech will go on indefinitely.
My point in relation to the agricultural levies and the duties is that, as has been recognised ever since the necessary Community Regulations were passed, these do not in reality belong to member countries but flow through, in our case, the


Consolidated Fund to the Communities. I suggest that an annual Vote in these circumstances would be wholly inappropriate. It would not recognise the reality of our obligation. Such an obligation can be properly reflected only by charging the payments directly on the Consolidated Fund. Anything else would be incompatible with the decision and the Regulation. Similar considerations might be expected to apply to the V.A.T. contribution as and when it started to flow.
Then I come to the member State contribution. This could, it is true, be voted like other international contributions and subscriptions. But, given the inevitable treatment of the levies, duties and perhaps the V.A.T. share, would not putting the member State contribution on a Vote be somewhat unreal? Bearing in mind that it is due to be phased out, it seems reasonable and sensible to treat it in the same way as the first group of payments.
Then there are the capital contributions. Those to the Investment Bank and the Coal and Steel Community reserves are initial subscriptions and part of the inevitable price of joining. Parliament could not refuse to vote them while still claiming accession to the Communities. Therefore these, too, are properly charged on the Consolidated Fund.
Finally, there are the loans to the Investment Bank and to member States under the medium-term assistance scheme. Clearly these would be appropriately charged on the National Loans Fund, as indicated by my hon. Friend the Minister of State last week. They, too, represent firm obligations under the Treaties, and one is doing no more than recognising that fact by charging them direct on the National Loans Fund. After all, this is the procedure used by Governments of both parties for the very similar loans to the International Monetary Fund where similar considerations apply.
What is the main reason put up in the debate last week for objecting to this procedure? It is said that Parliament's control of public expenditure thereby will be weakened. I believe that argument to be somewhat unreal.
First, it is recognised increasingly that our long-established procedure of Estimates, Votes, Appropriations and the rest, while essential to ensure proper accounting for expenditure, offers Parlia

ment at best only theoretical control. The form is there. We all know the reality has long since departed. Those hon. Members who sat on the Procedure Committee which determined that we needed a much better system of Parliamentary control making use of the five-year Public Expenditure White Paper and involving eventually the Select Committee on Expenditure, will know that this is regarded as necessary because the established Statutory procedures have become really only the shadow and not the substance of control by this House.

Mr. John Mendelson: The hon. Gentleman is now developing an important new constitutional doctrine beyond the immediate debate. Is he now saying that the only reason why Parliament has subjected any financial outlay to its own strict and direct approval was for accountancy purposes? Is he not ignoring the far more important reason, namely that we control policy as a result of the control of finance? Is he to overthrow in an afterthought centuries of constitutional doctrine?

Mr. Jenkin: I am doing nothing of the sort. I am dealing with the question of whether the importance of Parliament actually being able to vote on an individual matter of expenditure represents the reality of Parliament's control over the Executive. It is true that the whole of the form is there, is necessary, and will be preserved for expenditure on Votes. But I hope that hon. and right hon. Members in all parts of the House will recognise that when we are talking about the control of expenditure it is not the Estimate, Vote and Appropriation procedure that provides Parliament with the influence which it may have upon the control of public expenditure.

Mr. Jay: Is not the hon. Gentleman simply arguing that because in his view we now only have the form and not the substance therefore instead of restoring the substance we should throw away the form?

Mr. Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman could have a good point, but unless he is proposing that we should seek to restore the procedures, the timing, the Motions, and all the rest that used to accompany the Estimates, Votes and Appropriations for the whole range of


voted expenditure, his argument is a bit unreal.
Instead the House has recognised, and this was done under the previous Government, that we are now developing a new panoply of effective controls over public expenditure—five-year expenditure White Papers, the annual two-day debate, and most important—I make no excuse for saying this—the Select Committee on Expenditure. I can assure the House that all the money covered by this Money Resolution will be fully covered by that procedure. My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) raised the point in last week's debate about the Select Committee on Expenditure being entitled to examine this. I answer him categorically by saying, "Yes". It will be open to the Committee to probe as deeply as it wishes into the expenditure.

Mr. Neil Marten: That would mean that the Expenditure Committee would go roaming throughout the Community to follow up the money that was being raised here, to see that it was properly spent?

Mr. Jenkin: That would be a matter for the Committee to decide in accordance with the normal conventions of the House.
The argument is that the payments voted are not adequately debatable. I am saying if they are charged directly it is true that they are not debatable on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill but they can always be debated under the Supply procedure introduced in 1966 and on Motions tabled for Supply Days. These payments can be the subject of Parliamentary Questions, they can be raised in debates on the Adjournment. There will be ample opportunity to discuss, question and challenge these payments.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell: My hon. Friend said that these payments could be the subject of Parliamentary Questions. Does this mean that there will be Ministerial responsibility in this House for the expenditure of the "own resources" money?

Mr. Jenkin: My right hon. Friend knows the House of Commons well enough to know that it is not beyond the

ingenuity of hon. Members to devise forms of questions which will allow the substance of the matter to be raised at Question Time. The only limitation imposed by putting these sums directly on the Consolidated Fund and not on the Votes is that they cannot, year by year, be voted down. I would ask the House to recall when the last occasion was that the House ever exercised its power to vote down an Estimate. Even my right hon. Friend the Father of the House, the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) would be hard put to it to recall the occasion.
In 1919 the Committee on Supply threw out an Estimate for Lord Chancellor Haldane's bathroom which was costing £4,800. Subsequently one of my predecessors, Mr. Stanley Baldwin, had to come before the House and ask it to reinstate £2,000 of that money because it had already been spent. That was the last occasion on which Parliament used its power to reject even a single item in a Vote.

Mr. Michael Foot: Mr. Michael Foot  rose—

Mr. Jenkin: I really must get on.

Mr. Foot: Practically all of this time is provided by the Opposition so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not complain about my putting questions to him dealing with matters of great importance. He says that the House of Commons has not exercised its right to reject Estimates. In this sense it may be that the House has not been successful in carrying it through but I can give him instance after instance when his own party in opposition thought it was the only way in which it could exercise its rights. I remember Sir Winston Churchill when he was Leader of the Opposition tabling Motions dealing with Supplementary Estimates on the Health Service. What the hon. Gentleman is laughing at, mocking, is one of the most elementary rights that we have in this House and he really cannot dismiss it in this manner.

Mr. Jenkin: With the greatest respect, I am doing no such thing. What I am saying is that this House when it really wants to exercise its influence on expenditure—

Mr. John Mendelson: Has used this method.

Mr. Jenkin: No, with respect it has not. It has followed other methods, including the Supply Day method. As recently as 1966 it has extended Supply Days so that matters which are standing charges on the Consolidated Fund come within Supply Day Motions. These are some of the opportunities which are available to the House. I can assure hon. Gentlemen that I am not mocking anyone. I am pointing to the fact that the last occasion on which this was done was in 1919.

Sir Robin Turton: My hon. Friend has referred to me in this respect and I can give him a concrete example of the value of this method, when the House questioned the groundnut scheme in East Africa on a Supply Day. As the Minister responsible was a member of the Government and they had a majority the Motion did not succeed, but the House discharged its responsibility of questioning a gross waste of expenditure. We want to be able to do exactly the same in future but we will not be able to under this Resolution.

Mr. Jenkin: I am happy to reassure my right hon. Friend, because that is exactly what he will be able to do if those payments are charged on the Consolidated Fund.

Mr. English: How?

Mr. Jenkin: By tabling a Motion for the Supply Day. That was the procedure recommended by the Procedure Committee when my right hon. Friend was a member in the 1965–66 Session. It recommended a change so that matters of this sort should be debateable.

Mr. Heffer: A simple point. Suppose the Motion was carried. What happens?

Mr. Jenkin: I have no doubt that if it were sufficiently serious to be treated as a matter of confidence the necessary consequences would follow, just as they would have followed in the procedure to which my right hon. Friend referred in relation to the groundnut scheme.

Mr. Jay: If it is true that we can debate this expenditure on a Supply Day just as much as if it was on the Consolidated Fund why does the right hon.

Gentleman want to put it on the Consolidated Fund?

Mr. Jenkin: Because putting it directly on the Consolidated Fund recognises the reality of the obligations which the House and country are accepting in joining the Communities. These are not payments on which it is appropriate to vote automatically, year by year, and which if not so voted would not pass to the Communities. I would have thought that was an argument of considerable substance.
The payments will, of course, come within the ambit of the Exchequer and Audit Department, the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report and the P.A.C. The accounting officer—I am advised that this will be the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury—can be questioned on them. The reality of parliamentary scrutiny under these procedures is every bit as efficacious as it would be under the procedures of Estimate, Vote and Appropriation and I submit that these proposals are right. These two Resolutions are necessary to allow the Bill to proceed. I hope that I have explained their purpose and effect adequately.

5.50 p.m.

Mr. Peter Shore: We took the rather unusual step of seeking a separate and substantial debate on these two Resolutions so that we can focus the attention of the House and the country on what appear to be almost unique features of the European Communities Bill: I refer to the expenditure and taxation obligations which the Measure will impose. I am sure that we were right to do this. We are right because to us the principal defect in the negotiations, as revealed in the White Paper last July, in the Treaty of Accession and to some extent in the Bill itself, as they affect the prosperity of this country, is the heavy burden which we shall have to bear in meeting the financial obligations of membership.
It is also right for us to have this debate because these two Resolutions undoubtedly do great damage to the effective authority of Parliament. While the Money Resolution would deny us the opportunity of effectively scrutinising these large payments, the Ways and


Means Resolution—the most extraordinary that has ever come before Parliament—actually cedes the power of taxation to the European Communities. If I had any doubt at all in my mind about the value of having such a debate, such doubt would have been completely dispelled in listening to the splendid exposition by the Financial Secretary, who put the matters to us as plainly, as brutally and as unacceptably as the matters deserve to be put. We are deeply grateful to him for doing so. We have learned a lot in the process of question and answer in which my right hon. and hon. Friends have engaged with the Financial Secretary. We have learned also from his exposition of what is involved.

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Mr. Patrick Jenkin rose—

Mr. Shore: I have not finished paying my tribute.

Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but I want to be spared my blushes. He said "as unacceptably", but I did not say anything in my speech of which he as a member of the last Government was unaware at the time when the 1970 White Paper was published.

Mr. Shore: Mr. Shore rose—

Hon. Members: Go on.

Mr. Shore: I shall deal with that. There is no need to worry. The Financial Secretary comes relatively new to these debates. There are veterans sitting behind him who will be well aware of the moves in this chess game. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has made a whole series of moves which it is becoming very tedious to follow. I would rather not do so now but I have something deliberate to say about these things and I shall come to that.
I was saying that we welcomed what the Financial Secretary said and the clarity of his exposition, because there are matters here which we need to have explained to us. We have also taken aboard a number of matters—warnings for the future, perhaps—of which the House may not have been wholly aware. I refer to what the hon. Gentleman said about the Communities being developing institutions and, therefore, the possibility that future taxes might be added to the

"own resources" package. My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) referred to the Communities being able to increase the existing levels of "own resources" taxes without such matters necessarily coming before this Parliament.
The Financial Secretary also told us a great deal about his attitude to what is involved in the extraordinary justification which he gave of the procedures concerned in the Money Resolution when he told us that in a sense it did not matter because we have already lost the reality of control over expenditure in this House. If people start the discussion and approach to these matters on the basis that we have already substantially lost control over expenditure and the proper use of the House of Commons, those who start with such propositions will be driven to quite appalling conclusions.
I shall say nothing on this occasion about the nature of the taxes which are involved in the package covered by the Resolutions. I shall defer comment on the effects of the taxing of our food and all the goods and services that will be covered by the value-added tax and the effect that those taxes will be bound to have on the cost of living, on our distribution of incomes and on the health of our economy. I shall confine myself to the total sums involved and the impact which these may have on our national prosperity. Clearly, substantial sums are involved; just how substantial, however, we do not know. As the Money Resolution asserts, there are to be
such sums as may be specified in the Act, being sums required to meet payments to any of the Communities or to Member States or to the European Investment Bank",
and so on.
Although we have every reason to believe that they are substantial, these sums are nowhere adequately described or defined. In the Treaty of Accession itself the financial provisions are briefly dealt with in Articles 127 to 132. There we find some account of the taxes which we are to pay and, in the transitional period, the reduced contribution we are to make, a distinction which hon. Members will recognise. Unfortunately, no figures of value are produced in the treaty itself. All that the treaty sees fit to expose is the rising percentage of our


notional percentage payment to the Community budget in the years 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977 and then the further fractions which we are to pay in 1978–79. There is an empty space for 1980 when we commence payments under the Community "own resources" system—a complete void at that point.
The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum is a little more forthcoming. There we are reminded that
The Government's estimate is that the net cost to the United Kingdom, taking into account estimates of possible receipts from the budget, might rise from about £100 million in 1973 to about £200 million in 1977".
As the House will recall, this is simply a summary of the information in the July, 1971, White Paper in which we were told that our total net contribution for the five years 1973–77 was likely to be £725 million. Again, beyond 1977 the Bill, like the Treaty of Accession, gives us no guidance, and the Government have refused adamantly to go further themselves.
We understand the Government's embarrassment in this matter, but the best estimate that I and others have been able to make is that there will be very sharp increases indeed after 1977 beyond the £200 million net contribution that we shall make then. So far as we can judge, the net contribution by 1980, rising very steeply indeed, is likely to be about £470 million a year—the figure that the Government themselves presented to the Six in Brussels on 30th July, 1970. It will be recalled that this vast sum—we must establish it, because we are talking not of trivialities but of major sums—must be paid from whatever trade surplus we can earn and has to be handed over across the balance of payments as a direct cash payment to the Community.
The House will also recall that, apart from the last two years—when our surpluses have been swollen by appallingly high unemployment and by exchange rate changes of an unprecedented kind—this country, in the whole post-war period, has never once earned a surplus as large as the figure which by 1980 we are expected annually to pay. This is a very serious matter. Difficulties with our balance of payments have been a recurring theme in our post-war economy—the main reason why we have found it so difficult to attain a satisfactory rate of

growth in the British economy and the reason why we have had intermittent bouts of high unemployment and periods of economic stop.
Because it is so serious, I regret the Government's refusal to discuss this matter frankly. Instead, as we all know, they have sought to avoid the issue, first by asserting that realistic estimates cannot be made, then by throwing dust in our eyes with the assertion—quite irrelevant to the issue itself and also untrue—that the Labour Government had accepted the same burden, and finally, as I reminded the House last week, by relying on that rather pathetic verbal formula that if unacceptable situations arose—in other words, if we could not pay—the Community would somehow have to find a solution.
That is the backcloth. But not only are we being asked to authorise a dangerously large and open-ended and uncosted amount—I must emphasise that it is uncosted, open-ended and very large—but we have every reason to believe that the burden which the Community financing system imposes will be disproportionately heavy upon ourselves, much heavier than on any other member of the Community.
It is extraordinary that in all our debates we have not had any comment from the Government as to the distribution of these tax burdens between the different members of the Community, either as it is now or as it would be if it were enlarged. The best estimate that we can make from outside is that the Community budget would cost Germany, with a considerably larger income than our own, about £130 million a year. Italy, with a smaller national income than our own, will come out virtually even. Belgium and Luxembourg expect to gain about £27 million a year, the Netherlands £180 million and France over £310 million a year.
I hope that those figures are lodged in the minds of hon. Members because it is against these figures that we have to view the minus of £470 million a year, which is the only estimate which has been made of Britain's contribution under the "own resources" formula. In short, as those hon. Members who can do these sums will already have discovered, we shall be financing ourselves by far the larger part of the Community's transfer payment.
How has this come about? During the earlier years of the Community, the Community budget was financed largely through national contributions based on the relative national income of the member States. A kind of key was established to try to be fair in assessing the contributions of the nation States according to their relative economic strength. This was supplemented, as we were reminded by the Financial Secretary, by levies on imported food. The exact mix was agreed for two- or three-year periods and was subject to considerable variations at different stages in the long initial transitional period.
It will be recalled—this is my first comment direct to the Financial Secretary—that it was precisely the levies on imported food which were the subject of the major reservation by my right hon. Friends on the eve of the "non-negotiation" of 1967. The then Foreign Secretary said in his speech at The Hague:
I think it is recognised that the existing financial arrangements would be an inequitable burden on the United Kingdom".
That was what he said in 1967, so it is no good pretending that this was accepted by us. That was said deliberately, and it could only have related to the levies, which were the only tax then in force.
The Foreign Secretary went on to say—this is the direct answer to that part of the Financial Secretary's charge—
We shall look forward to taking part as a full member of the Community in the negotiation of the financial arrangements for the period after the end of 1969.
In other words we would, under those arrangements, from the inside, have had that very right of veto over the development of permanent arrangements which could alone have preserved our position as an applicant State. This is a very important change indeed.
In April, 1970, at the end of the Community's original 12-year period, the Community of course agreed its new and now permanent financial system. It was only when that was agreed, as the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster well knows, that France decided that she would be prepared to open the possibilities of negotiation.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): As the right hon. Gentleman knows, although

the formal agreement was in April, 1970, the nature of these arrangements was known in February, 1970, and taken into account in the Labour Government's own White Paper.

Mr. Shore: It was not, with respect. I remember all this very well. The February, 1970, debate—[Interruption.] This is where we get into the chess game about paragraphs 43 and 44. I do not want to go over all that ground again, but I have something slightly new to say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. [An HON. MEMBER: "We do not have time."] We have time to elaborate these points. If hon. Members want a full reply on this matter, they can have it. They should not imagine that there are not replies to these rather jejune points, because there are.
Perhaps I can give the right hon. and learned Gentleman what he wants—one or two quotations. I will quote first from the February White Paper. I inform the House and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that this is the last time I intend to do this, because it is just trivialising and boring for us to go over these matters when what really matters is whether it is the right decision—not who said what and when.
This is the last time, I think, that in response to this challenge I shall be bothered with this absurd exercise. I will now read what is said in paragraph 44 of the White Paper of February, 1970:
The implementing decisions have not yet been taken"—
that is, of the new, own-resources system.
They have reached agreement in principle on arrangements for meeting the cost, but their application in a reasonable and equitable way to our situation must be a matter for negotiation, as has always been recognised.
To make it absolutely plain and beyond further dispute I have now to call in aid the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Michael Stewart), then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, when he spoke to this White Paper in the House in the debate on 24th February, 1970. My right hon. Friend said:
The White Paper of which we are asked to take note reaffirms the policy of opening negotiations. It does not make announcements on policy. It reaffirms, rightly, that item of policy"—


the reopening of negotiations:
it goes no further. It is not a statement of policy but a response to the repeated and indeed justifiable requests for an economic assessment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 998.]
How can that possibly be represented in all fairness and honesty as being an endorsement and acceptance by the Labour Government of 1970?

Mr. Russell Kerr: May I supplement what my right hon. Friend has just said? Is it not the fact that with the publication in the February, 1970, White Paper of the truly astronomical cost, making it known to Labour Members at any rate for the first time, there was a total swing of opinion within the then Government party which has resulted ever since in a very determined majority against these ridiculous proposals?

Mr. Shore: The White Paper had a very considerable effect. I do not think it was necessarily the only factor in the matter but I believe it is no coincidence that opinion in the country, and to some extent in the political parties, was influenced by that White Paper, as indeed it should have been.

Mr. Rippon: Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear that he has quoted only a very small part of paragraph 44 and left out paragraph 43? Will he not agree that paragraph 44 of that White Paper which he accepted went into very considerable detail on the net effect on our balance of payments burden? In 1967 it was thought that it would be between £175 million and £200 million and it was then thought it might be higher, so there was not a great deal of difference between us on the end of the negotiations except that ours have produced better results than the Labour Government expected.

Mr. Shore: The right hon. and learned Gentleman wanted earlier to establish the point that is so essential to him because he will not stand on his own two feet in the matter of argument. He wishes all the time to borrow and to lean upon the strength of what he pretends were specific commitments made by my right hon. Friends. Again, I can only say that one deplores this as a way of arguing these matters and I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman, speaking as I do with some knowledge and authority, that

he is wrong and that we did not accept or consent to these proposals.

Mr. Kerr: And we would not have been allowed to.

Mr. Shore: That is all I can say to the House. I give the House that assurance and the right hon. and learned Gentleman really has to accept it from me. There is very little I can say beyond that.
I was coming on to contrast the older systems with what was agreed in April, 1970. In the 1970 agreement the national contributions were to be abolished by 1975. The old figure relating these to the national income key is to be abolished in 1975 and replaced by the yield of the three taxes of which we have spoken—customs duties on goods imported from outside Europe, levies on food imported from outside Europe and the 1 per cent. value-added tax. Moreover, in so far as the yield of these taxes was needed for the expenditure of the Community they would cease, under the April, 1970 agreement, to be the revenue of member States and would become instead the Community's "own resources".
I must point out to the House how it is that this system discriminates so harshly against us and why these taxes particularly hurt us. First, with our century-old policy of agricultural free trade and close ties with the American and Australasian continents, we are the biggest food importers in the world. Whereas the Six are by and large self-supporting in food, we import 50 per cent. of our food. So, of course, a system of levies is bound to affect us most grievously.
The Government's own estimate in July, 1970, was that we would pay 45 per cent, of all the levies contributed to the Community. That was why my right hon. Friends, in the non-negotiation of 1967, made such a fuss and said we would not accept it, because they knew this was bound to be the case. Again, because we are world traders, because a much higher proportion of our imports comes from outside Europe than is the case with other members of the Common Market, we are bound to pay more customs levies than all the rest. Indeed we reckon, although we are one-fifth or less of an enlarged Community in terms of our national income that we would pay no less than one-third of the total customs duties to the Community.
It is true that the value-added tax may work a little more fairly between the member States but it should be noted that it will be collected only after the full yield of the levies and customs duties have been collected and then only to the extent that that value-added tax contribution is required. This is not all. While we pay this ludicrously high proportion of the total budget for the reasons I have described—deep historical reasons which go to the very structure of our economy—we are also certain to receive a disproportionately small part of its expenditure. The main spending, after all, is to prop up the numerous small farms of the Six and to subsidise the sale of the surplus farm products of the Community as a whole. While 15 per cent of the employed population of the Six work on farms, less than 3 per cent. of our population work in British agriculture. Thus we cannot expect to be a large-scale recipient of moneys that are meant to help reorganise small farms or to help to deal with the problem of any large surplus production of home-grown food. We would receive very little.

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman has made a great deal of the previous Government's objection to the agricultural levy system and the burden this would throw on our balance of payments after the transitional period, which he says is why his right hon. Friends made such a fuss about it.
To remind myself I have been reading the last three paragraphs of the White Paper on Agriculture (Cmnd. 3274) which sets out what the effect of that common agricultural policy would be. There are a number of factors which it spells out as determining the figure but it nowhere mentions that it had anything to do with the negotiations, because the right hon. Gentleman's Government knew perfectly well that if they joined they had to accept the common agricultural policy as it stood from the end of the transitional period.

Mr. Shore: The future of the common agricultural policy was not agreed in the spring of 1967, and still less the means of financing it. Anyone who does not understand that has just not been serious in doing the work that should be done to understand the Common Market.
When we consider the net effects of what we pay out and receive back, these arrangements are little short of a national disaster. No Government in their senses could have agreed to terms so clearly against and detrimental to our interests. It is difficult to imagine a system of taxation, a tax mix, that could impose a heavier and more disproportionate burden upon us than the particular tax mix that has emerged as the permanent tax system of the Community under the "own resources" rule. I do not say that was the Community's purpose, but they have been extremely blind in not recognising the grievous effect this is bound to have upon us. Indeed, I cannot recall another example in history of a free country, without compulsion from outside, entering upon an arrangement so damaging to itself.
Apart from being disastrous and unfair, these arrangements, as the Financial Secretary has made so abundantly clear, constitutes a direct challenge to the most important power of Parliament, our exclusive control over taxation. As the Ways and Means Resolution makes clear, we shall permit the Community to tax the British people. We are acceding not just to the Treaty of Rome but to the Treaty of Luxembourg of April, 1970, which specifically authorised the Community to have its own resources and to receive the yield of the three taxes to which I have referred.
That agreement was a major development in the Community and I found it extraordinary that, in our debate last week, neither the Solicitor-General nor the Prime Minister had anything to say about it. The Solicitor-General amused himself greatly by quoting from the 1967 White Paper on the legal and constitutional implications of Britain joining the Common Market but, in his efforts to show that the constitutional innovation of the Communities having directly applicable law in the United Kingdom was known in 1967, he totally, and to me surprisingly, omitted to mention the second and even greater constitutional innovation which occurred in 1970: the right of the Communities to tax directly the member States. This was not mentioned in the 1967 White Paper. Why should it be, when the system we now know was not then evolved and the Community had not the right or the express


intention at that stage of acquiring it? For the Prime Minister to say, as he did last Thursday, that the constitutional position has not changed in any single respect since the negotiations of 1961, when it was fully discussed in the House time and again, is stretching the truth to the greatest possible extent.
This is a major development in the Communities, as a consequence of which there is a major intrusion into the sovereignty of Parliament. The strongest of all our constitutional principles is that Parliament, and in particular the House of Commons which represents the people of this country, alone has the right to levy taxation. That has been the basic constitutional doctrine. Because Parliament three centuries ago insisted on this right, we gradually brought the Crown and the Executive under the control of elected representatives. As we were reminded recently, Parliament made the supply of money to the Government conditional on the remedying of grievances. That was the way in which control by the House of Commons was brought about.
There should be no doubt about what is intended here. It is not proposed that we should make a contribution to the Communities which we can alter if we think it is too much or too little. It is not a contribution at all. The right to levy the three taxes which are specified is to be ceded to non-elected institutions of the Community without the further consent of Parliament or the British people.
As the Ways and Means Resolution puts it, we shall be
giving effect to any charge to taxation of those Communities ''.
That is quite unacceptable to us.
Further, as the Money Resolution makes clear, the moneys granted are to be charged on the Consolidated Fund or the National Loan Fund. The effect of the Money Resolution—and I am still unsatisfied by the Financial Secretary's explanation—is deliberately to place those sums outside the ordinary and annual scrutiny of this House. We have heard that it is possible for the House to discuss them, but my right hon. Friend made a major and salient point when he asked why the charges were put into the Standing Services of the Consoli

dated Fund if it is just as easy to debate them there as it would be on ordinary Supply. The answer surely is that they are put there because it is more difficult. Why else should they be joining community with the Civil List, the servicing of the National Debt, Mr. Speaker's salary, judges' salaries and other matters which we do not think should normally be discussed year by year? I am always interested in what the Financial Secretary has to say, but his sophistry this afternoon was amazing.
As the House will recognise, the purpose of our Amendment is to defeat this intention of the Government and to ensure that if any moneys are to be paid they will at least be provided by Parliament on an annual basis. I believe that the Amendment will recommend itself to all quarters of the House.
While we shall seek support for our Amendment to the Money Resolution it is our intention to vote against the Ways and Means Resolution, thus expressing our resolute opposition both to the appalling bargain that the Government have struck in the negotiations and to the whole abominable principle that a non-elected institution outside this country should have the right to tax the British people.

6.27 p.m.

Mr. Edward Gardner: Had the speech which the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) has just made been translated into French, German or Dutch and made 15 years ago in any one of the Parliaments of the member States of the Community, one could have listened to it with some respect and with some apprehension about the future. If one looks back at the reports of speeches made in the Parliaments of Europe 15 years ago one sees that that kind of speech was being made time and time again by people who did not know the future and did not know what they were going into. Today, no one on either side of the House has any excuse for saying that he does not know of the experiences of Europe during the last 15 years.

Mr. English: The hon. and learned Gentleman said, correctly, that there were many debates on this subject in many Parliaments, but is it not true that in the Bundestag it was decided that this


matter should be discussed annually, which is exactly what we are saying?

Mr. Gardner: Yes, but that is not appropriate now. I will explain and develop that as a point when I come to it.
I am saying that there is nothing we know now that has not been known over certainly the last seven to 10 years. There is nothing that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has said to the House today that the Socialist Government did not know. Indeed, the point that was put to the right hon. Member for Stepney about whether this was so has not been answered. It cannot be answered except in this way: that the speech by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary today cannot be regarded by anyone in the House as something that is new or contains any surprises. This has all been known for years. To suggest that the Government have in some way been concealing from the House or from the country the financial consequences of joining the Common Market is a travesty of the facts.
In these circumstances I should like to look at the fundamentals of the position. As we all know, up to 1970 the Community was to be financed by the member States from levies on agricultural imports of which the whole, with the exception of a 10 per cent. rebate for collection costs, was to be handed over to the Community. The remainder of the finance for the Community was to be collected from national contributions by member States. We all know this; it is elementary. We all know that from 2nd January this year that system is being progressively changed so that ultimately the Community will be relying upon its own resources, and those resources will be collections from agricultural levies and customs dues. There is nothing new in this. It was all anticipated; it was all presumably in the minds of those who were dealing with the question whether we should apply for membership of the European Economic Community when the Labour Government made their application.
What is required here? What is being asked of the Government? The only sure, practical way of financing the Community is to see that the finances that have to be raised for the Community

budgets are there with certainty. If they are to depend upon an annual vote of individual Parliaments inside the Community, there will be no certainty. The funds have to be earmarked, there must be automatic payments. We cannot have the Community reduced to the financial condition of the United Nations, where contributions are made according to the whims of individual nations, can we? The Community cannot be run like that. It is quite out of the question.
That because of these conditions, of which we have known for years, we should not go into the Community may be the view that some hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House, and, let me add in all fairness, on this side of the House as well, hold and have expressed. But to suggest that until recently this has been in any way a party view, at least so far as the Opposition is concerned, is to look in a mirror that completely distorts the past, misleads the present and puts the future hopelessly out of focus.
What the Government are seeking to do now is plain common sense. I speak as one who has been an enthusiastic European for many years and who does not treat this as a party matter, because indeed I do not. If I felt convinced, as do some of my right hon. and hon. Friends, that the Community was not for this country, then indeed I would find myself in the position in which they have found themselves, and I like to think that I would have the political courage to do as they have done. But I do not, and I have not. I have spoken to them and they will agree with this. We have argued together, I hope in the best of good humour but none the less seriously, about the rights and wrongs of going into the Common Market. I have been convinced for many years. It would be wrong for me to detain the House—indeed I should be going outside the limits of this debate—to give my reasons for my conviction that this country ought, for its present and for its future, to go into the Common Market. But even as an enthusiastic European I am the last person in this House, I hope, who would wish to see the sovereignty of this House diminished.
If that seems to some to be a contradiction, I will just say this to clarify the matter. In my view, when one joins in


an agreement or joins a community of this kind there must inevitably be some diminution of freedom. It cannot be otherwise; there is give and take. [An HON. MEMBER: "Too much give and not enough take."] There is much give and a lot of take in this.
In my anxiety over the powers of this House I am pleased to have heard from my hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that this House, through a Committee, will be given the opportunity of reviewing and examining, and no doubt analysing in depth, the directives and regulations which ultimately this House will have to accept unless it is able to identify some particular regulation or directive which is so detrimental to the interests of this country that we shall have to persuade our colleagues in the Community that our views must prevail.
But these are matters which might be described as "old hat". We have known of them for years.

Mr. John Mendelson: The hon. and learned Gentleman is making a Second Reading speech.

Mr. Gardner: No, I am not. I am making, I hope, a contribution in all seriousness to persuading the House that what the Government are doing is the only thing that can be done to provide the funds the Community needs from this country. I only hope that the misunderstandings and misrepresentations, the way in which some Opposition Members are seeking to deceive the country about what is being done—

Mr. Shore: Deceiving themselves.

Mr. Gardner: Deceiving themselves as well indeed but, fortunately, not the whole House of Commons. I hope that this will not in any way confuse the issue. I for one support wholeheartedly the manner in which the Government seek to fulfil their obligations—obligations of which we have known for many years.

6.40 p.m.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: I listened in amazement to the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner), who made a somewhat lengthy explanation to tell the House that, because he had always been in favour of Europe, that must of necessity be right. He may be right, but

I have always been strongly against going into Europe and claim that I also have been right.
The hon. and learned Gentleman tried to denigrate some of my hon. Friends because they may or may not have changed their views since 1967. Since that time they may perhaps have become anti-Common Market, whereas formerly they were pro. However, it is not unusual for politicians on both sides of the House to change their views.
I remember in 1962 my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition being violently anti-Common Market, and there are many quotations I could use in support of that argument. In those days no attack was made on him. In 1966 he changed his mind because he thought he would be able to negotiate favourable conditions. Many of us thought that he could not be able to do so, and subsequently we were proved right.
It is not unusual for issues to change. I remember many Conservatives being violently against the National Health Scheme, but when they found that it was becoming popular—[Interruption.] Yes. they voted on Second and Third Reading against the principle.

Sir Robin Turton: That is quite untrue. The Conservative Party tabled a reasoned Amendment drawing attention to some of the weaknesses in that scheme. The Conservative Party did not oppose the National Health Scheme which was embodied in a White Paper by Sir Winston Churchill in the middle of the war.

Mr. Lewis: The point is that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House change their minds, but nobody now seems a castigate either the Leader of the Opposition or the Prime Minister for introducing charges for teeth and spectacles and other health charges. The argument has been that the economic siutation has changed and therefore circumstances have changed. It is always said that they are good reasons for acting in a certain way.
It may be that some of my right hon. and hon. Friends are now saying that circumstances in 1972 are different from those which obtained in 1967. At the moment the present Government do not


seem even to be able to negotiate with the miners. My right hon. and hon. Friends have been able to prove on the facts and figures that the Conservative Government in this instance, as in most other things, have made a complete hash of things. In the Cockney vernacular they have made a mess of it. But having got this far and committed themselves, they have not the honesty and decency to admit they have made a mistake. It would he far better for them to say "We have now changed our minds". This is even more important when new evidence comes along, and there has indeed been some new evidence in the last few years.
I am amazed at some of my hon. Friends. I heard one on the radio programme "World at One" shedding crocodile tears that we were making him do something against his conscience. It is amazing the number of times I have had to do many things against my concience—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am glad that hon. Members opposite have corrected me. [An HON. MEMBER: "Start again, Arthur."] They have tried to make me do things against my conscience and always—my record is there for all to see—I have not worried and have voted for what I believed. And often I voted against my own Government, as I have done consistently on this particular issue. I voted against my own Government because I believed they were wrong, as I believe the present Government are wrong. I voted consistently against health charges, and I have voted in support of my party's policy as laid down as its conferences.
The Liberals were the only people at the last election who said they, come what may, would go into the Common Market. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister gave a solemn pledge, not once but dozens of times, that he would not go in unless he had the wholehearted consent of the people and of Parliament.

Mr. Marten: Full-hearted consent.

Mr. Lewis: I am grateful for the correction. Can anybody say that we have had the full-hearted, wholehearted or absolute consent of Parliament and the people on this issue? Of course, we cannot. Did any party, other than the Liberals, say they would go in on any condition? No, it was only the Liberals.

Mr. David Steel: No, we did not.

Mr. Lewis: The Liberals know what happened to them. They lost a number of seats—[An HON. MEMBER: "So did Labour."] We lost a number of seats because we did not clearly say that we were wholeheartedly against entry. If we had been definite and said that we were wholeheartedly against entry, we would have gained more seats. I am sorry we did not do that.
We are now being asked in the Ways and Means Resolution to allow some bureaucratic organisation in Brussels, to which none of us will be elected—

Mr. Steel: We might be appointed.

Mr. Lewis: No, we will not. The usual supporters of bureaucracy will be appointed only if they are good yes-men. They will be appointed with no power to alter or amend. The hon. and learned Member for South Fylde, who seems to know all about parliamentary procedure, at least should have had the courtesy to wait to hear the speech of the hon. Member who followed him.

Mr. Robert Adley: On a point of order—

Mr. Lewis: It cannot be a point of order, because the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley) is about to explain the absence of his hon. Friend. No doubt the hon. Gentleman was about to excuse his hon. and learned Friend's absence by saying that he has gone to a Committee. For all I know he may be going to Europe on a Committee and will not be able to return to deal with the debate. He would be one of the permanent absentees to whom I referred earlier in regard to one of my hon. Friends, who is one of the permanent absentees in Europe. Those absentees will have no power to alter or amend any of the rules and regulations laid down by the Council of Ministers.
Indeed, I recollect bringing in a 3 ft. pile of rules and regulations on the secondary legislation. It took me about 12 months to get the Government to get them presented. It will take 12 months to look through them, let alone to study them to know them. I challenged the Minister then and I challenge him now. Will he give me an assurance—which he cannot and will not—that we can alter or amend


any one full stop or comma in any one of those rules and regulations? Is it possible for this House to make any alteration or amendment in any way, shape or form in some 1,500 rules and regulations which affect the lives and well-being of every man, woman and child in this country?
No Member of this House, from the Prime Minister down, has discussed them. It was not until quite recently that we ever saw them. I spoke to a prominent Cabinet Minister when they were issued. I said, "I want to study these rules and regulations. Have you seen them?" He said, "Have I seen them—?" I will not use his non-Parliamentary language. I will say, "No, of course I have not seen them. The first time I saw them was when you got them." I said," So you do not know what is in them? He said, "I do not know what is in them. I have never seen them." So I said, "Then none of the Cabinet has seen them?" He said, "Of course we have not seen them." This is before we go into the Market. They are—

Mr. Nigel Spearing: They are the law.

Mr. Lewis: That is right; they are the law. We cannot alter or amend any of them.
Now we have the Ways and Means Resolution. I agree with the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) that it will not go through because the people of this country will start screaming on this matter. If the British people are not allowed to bring forward their views, as the Prime Minister said, to give their wholehearted consent, then there will be a scream and the Government will not get these matters through.
Even if the Bill goes through, what do we find? We find that money and taxation will be raised in Brussels by some bureaucrats. Some will come from Germany which, by the way, I suggest has not got the history of the greatest of democratic traditions over the years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Really."] Really, it is true. Italy is not the country of the greatest democratic traditions over the years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh dear."] More than "Oh dear". It is true.

France, of course, has not got the greatest of historical democratic traditions.

Mr. Adley: That is a racialist argument.

Mr. Lewis: No, it is not. I am coming back to this point. I am speaking up for this House of Commons for which perhaps the Conservative Party has not much care, but I have. I am proud of the fact that I can and do get up here and attack and query and question Ministers. I can get up and make myself awkward, which I do. I can get up and say that I do not want to see this legislation go through. I may or may not succeed, but at least I have the opportunity.
If the Ways and Means Resolution goes through, what happens? I am then told, "You cannot do anything about this. This was agreed on 22nd February and it is now part of the Act." If some bureaucrat in Brussels decides that the 1 per cent. value-added tax shall go up to 5 per cent. and our Ministers. knowing how they give way under pressure, which they do, then agree, whether it is in the interests of Britain or not—I do not think that they often know what is in the interests of Britain—they then come back to this House and we are told. "We have agreed to a 5 per cent. value-added tax. You may discuss it, you may say just what you like, but you are not allowed to vote against it. You are not allowed to alter or amend it. because this has been agreed by the Council of Ministers in Brussels."

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman, after about 20 minutes, has reached the Ways and Means Resolution. His first proposition on the Resolution is totally wrong. In those circumstances the House would indeed vote on it under the procedure which I have already explained in my speech.

Mr. Lewis: Yes, we can vote on it, but the vote would be non-effective because the Council of Ministers has agreed and we, through our Minister, would have agreed to it. We would have no power to upset a decision which had been arrived at by the Council of Ministers unless our Minister used the veto.

Mr. Patrick Jerkin: The hon. Gentleman is again quite wrong. That charge could not affect people in this country


until this House had voted on it, and it would be ineffective regarding any obligation which we might have towards the Community. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to accept that, because that is the position.

Mr. Lewis: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will discuss this matter with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, because he has given me different information from that which I received from the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I asked the Chancellor of the Duchy whether the 1,500 rules and regulations which have already been agreed can be altered. He said that they could not be altered because, once the Council of Ministers has come to a decision, unless we, in our national interest, have said that we will not accept it and use the veto, it becomes the policy of the Council of Ministers and becomes a regulation laid down by Brussels. If it becomes a regulation it then becomes operative. If the hon. Gentleman is right—I hope that he is—it means that we can alter the 1,500 rules and regulations which have been agreed. Can we alter any of them?

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I hesitate to intervene again in the hon. Gentleman's speech. However, he has chosen a matter to which I devoted a considerable part of my speech about "own resources", where a payment to the Community is to form part of the Community's own resources. That could only be altered from the position as it now stands under the decision of 21st April, 1970, by an amendment or a new decision which would require the Government to come back to this House and get an affirmative vote on it.

Mr. Lewis: That does not help at all. The Financial Secretary has not answered the straight question which I asked. Will he listen? He has interrupted me twice and I listened to him. I will ignore him. I will not trouble him. I am saying that he has not helped at all. Will he now listen and answer my straight question? Factually this is not in dispute. We have about 1,500, give or take 200 or 300, rules and regulations which have been agreed by the Council of Ministers in Brussels. Is that correct? We are not allowed to alter or amend in any way,

shape or form those 1,500 rules and regulations. Is that true or not? I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. Is it true or not? Will he answer the question?

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: With respect, we are on the Ways and Means Resolution which talks about the particular kinds of—[Interruption.] To be fair, I think it is right that we should confine our attention to matters which are in order on the Resolution. I am not trying to dodge anything. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this position has been made abundantly clear time and again. The regulations which are in force at the time when this country accedes, except in so far as they have been derogated from the terms negotiated, which have been spelt out, will be binding on this country.

Mr. Lewis: It took the Financial Secretary about 20 or 30 words to say "Yes". I am right. They are not alterable or amendable in any way, shape or form. Therefore, the short answer is yes, we cannot alter or amend them.
The reason that we cannot alter or amend the rules and regulations is simple. The Council of Ministers has already agreed them in our absence because we were not members. My right hon. Friend will probably help me if the Minister will not. Will the hon. Gentleman help me by either agreeing or disagreeing that if, as can and will be the case, we join the Six become the Ten, and all the Ten within the Council of Ministers agree to some rule or regulation, whatever it may be, with their agreeing—when I say "their" I do not mean Parliament; I mean our Minister, whoever he may be at the time—that rule and regulation becomes legally binding then, as now, as in the future, on the national parliaments of the Ten? We can debate it but we cannot amend it.
If that is the proposition, if that is what the Ways and Means Resolution means, I and every other hon. Member will have to agree with a Minister, good or bad, from the Labour side or the Conservative—but never from the Liberal Party which is always absent. The Minister will come back to report to us and will say, "There it is boys and girls. You have had it. You can say what you like and do what you like and express your opinions, but at the end of the day it is


agreed—signed, sealed and settled". That is not democracy and it is not securing the wholehearted and full-hearted consent of the people in the country and Parliament. I will not accept this because I believe I am speaking for the people of this country, irrespective of their political views. They rightly believe that if they want to question a Minister they can. If they want to raise an issue, or if they want their Member of Parliament to raise an issue and, by a democratic vote, they can persuade the House of Commons to support it, they can expect the Minister to accept it or to give a good reason why he does not. Eventually the will of the House will and does prevail.
I see my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), the future Leader of the House, is present. I have worked with him on many occasions for many years. He will agree that we carried out a wonderful exercise on the reform of the House of Lords. There, both the Government and the Opposition agreed on what they wanted to do. But the House of Commons did not want it. The Government believed that everything was signed, sealed and settled and the noble Peers thought it was in the bag. But the House of Commons did not agree and they did not get away with it.
Another instance, which I relate against my own party, concerned the matter of industrial strife. Here both sides worked together to push a proposal through. But, by debate and argument in the House and by listening to the views of our supporters in the country, we found that the people and our party did not want this proposal to be passed. Of course, it was defeated.
The point I am seeking to make is that if we now agree to this Money Resolution we will not be able to exercise our right as we did on these previous occasions. The Financial Secretary has, by his interjection confirmed, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore), that we could argue until we were blue in the face and bring forward all the problems and difficulties of our constituents but without being able to change any decision. Hon. Members here with northern constituences have the problem of depressed areas and unemployment. At the moment they can argue and discuss these matters. But the Minister will

be able to return from Brussels with an agreement on such matters which is not amendable.
There are defects even on the positive side. Suppose that eventually social security benefits were harmonised and there was harmonisation in payments to old-age pensioners and the sick and disabled, as could well happen. The Minister might return from the Council of Ministers with an agreement to pay old-age pensioners an extra £1 a week. I might not want to vote against that, but I might say that the figure ought to be £2 a week because the cost of living had risen so much as a result of joining the Common Market. I might want £3 a week and I might carry the support of a majority of hon. Members from both sides. But if we wanted to propose an Amendment the Table and the Speaker would say that we could not because the agreement was not amendable. That is not democracy, and it is not giving any opportunity to the people of this country to have their wishes carried out.
The Government are against a referendum on entry into the Common Market, as is the Labour Party. But let us suppose we had a referendum or a gallup poll that old-age pensioners should be paid perhaps £3 or even £5 a week more, or perhaps should be given a 25 per cent. increase like the miners. They could be given unanimous support in the country and hon. Members could be urged by their constituents to press for such an increase. But they would be unable to do so, because a Minister, not appointed by the House of Commons or the Prime Minister, had entered into a legally-binding agreement in Brussels for an increase of £1. This is not good enough and as long as I have breath in my body and the opportunity I shall consistently oppose any of these steps that are being taken to deprive the House of Commons of its historical right to criticise, question and vote against the Executive and the Ministers who represent it.

7.9 p.m.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell: The two Resolutions which are before the House are extremely remarkable and indeed unprecedented in their character. This unprecedented character corresponds with the unprecedented constitutional change which is—by common agreement, I think—implicit


in the Bill which is necessary for the ratification of our accession to the Community. The implication of the Resolutions became even clearer as we listened to the very careful and clear exposition of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who certainly did not endeavour to dodge any of the meanings.
I do not think the House would be worthy of itself if it were not to address itself to the Resolutions and what they mean without attempting to ride off on the basis that these matters should have been understood or foreseen when negotiations were begun in 1961, or in 1967, or when a White Paper was published or debated at some subsequent time. The fact is that it is only now that the House is being specifically asked to divest itself of exclusive powers which it has hitherto had. We cannot say "This is a triviality, because we all understood from a previous White Paper that this would be the consequence if we were to agree to the very legislation which is now before the House".
That would be an intolerable argument in a circle. It would be the more intolerable in view of the fact that accession to the Community on these terms and with these implications was not an issue which was placed before the country at the last General Election. It is true that the public were awakening in the last year or two before the General Election to the implications of British accession, if it should ever happen. That is no doubt the reason why many hon. Members at the Election—certainly in terms of the manifesto of my party—declined to treat membership of the Community as an issue, saying simply that the sole commitment was negotiation and whatever might he implicit in an agreement, if it ever occurred, and in legislation, if it was ever presented to the House, would emerge later. What no one can argue is that these propositions were put to the electorate or that their consent was obtained for them. It is really an insult—I was going to say to the House, but, I say, to ourselves—not to recognise that we are now required to address ourselves to these propositions as they stand, without regard to anything that may have gone before.
The right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) was quite right to do a con

siderable amount of research into what might be the quantitative significance of the taxation which the Resolutions would allow to be imposed. For one of the unique characteristics of the Resolutions is that they are entirely at large. Hitherto it has been a grave matter for complaint when a Ways and Means Resolution has been placed before the House without some limitation, either implicit or stated, upon the total amount of taxation which could be raised as a result of it.
I recall, for example, when the Labour Government introduced their ill-fated Bill setting up the Land Commission, over which I for one have shed no tears of mourning. When it had received its Second Reading the House proceeded to consider the Ways and Means Resolution, and I should like to recall what was said on that occasion by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), who I think all will agree is one of the best authorities in the House upon our financial rules and procedures. He said:
…the historic Committee of Ways and Means"—
we were then, of course, under the old procedure, in Committee—
has to decide whether the right hon. Gentleman should be allowed to go ahead with a further proposal for the taxation of the people. This goes back for centuries; that this Committee is not prepared to grant the right hon. Gentleman such authority unless he is prepared to give to this Committee his own best calculation of what that burden is to be…
My right hon. Friend was not the only right hon. Gentleman who made that point in the course of that debate. On the then Opposition Front Bench it was no other than my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon), now Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who was in charge of our handling of the Bill. He said—and I respectfully echo what he said:
We…think it quite wrong that we should be asked to make provision of this kind for taxation of the subject with no limit at all."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1966; Vol 728, c. 748–50.]
That, in quantitative terms—I quite understand the qualitative qualifications which my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary explained—is exactly what we are asked to do once and for all, and never return to the matter again in terms of a


Ways and Means Resolution: to make provision
for taxation of the subject with no limit at all.
Under the forms of taxation—and they are very wide—which this Resolution authorises, there is literally no limit, in amount of time, to the future taxation which can be raised. That in itself illustrates and proves how profoundly decisive a step the House is asked to take in this legislation, a step which is clarified and illuminated by the Resolution.
That future taxation will be raised without the normal parliamentary procedures. It will be raised without any further Ways and Means Resolutions, and it will be applied and spent without any of the procedures of vote or of appropriation. So, within this scope, the taxation of the people, without limit of amount, is taken out of the control of this House, except that, naturally, the House can register its views by Motion from time to time. There can be no doubt about that; but we have not evolved an elaborate procedure, and constantly improved it over the centuries, in order to be told: "It will be just as good if you have a Motion occasionally, should there be anything you wish to raise."
The fact of these procedures having to be gone through whenever there is an increase in the burden on the subject or whenever there is new expenditure, ensures that information is given to the House in due and proper form; it also ensures that the House not merely has an opportunity to go through a certain known series of motions but is obliged to do so. That is control in a true sense, in a sense quite different from the ghost of control which is the most that is implied by the permission to have a debate from time to time about how the Community is getting on and what sort of sums are going from this country to be expended by the Community.
The Resolution is also bad in form, and the form is very relevant to the content and to the heart of the matter. I believe it is bad in form in that it wraps up in one single sentence all the forms of taxation which it authorises. The House will realise that at the time of the Finance Bill, when new taxation is being introduced and when changes in taxation are made, it is necessary that every single

separate change, increase or innovation in taxation shall be authorised by a Resolution. Nothing of this sort happens here. The whole thing is wrapped up in the single expression, "any charge to taxation of those Communities."
Once again my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames comes from the past—for he is nearly noble by now—to speak in the columns of HANSARD in my support. Even with a Measure so relatively simple as the Land Commission Bill, with the betterment levies, he believed that there was little or no precedent for
a Bill imposing major taxation of this kind
which was
not based on a Ways and Means Resolution."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 31st January, 1966; Vol. 723, c. 837.]
I have no intention in any way of challenging the Ruling which the Chair gave on the 15th of this month. Nevertheless it is a remarkable fact that this kind of elaboration, increase and alteration in taxation, when we have had it in the past, has been authorised only as a result of a series of Resolutions, each of which the House could concentrate upon and take separately. So it is incumbent upon us to unravel as best we can what lies concealed in that omnibus—I almost said "ominous "—phrase," any charge to taxation of those Communities."
On referring to the Bill we ascertain, first, that we are dealing with the customs under Clause 5, with the levies under Clause 6, and with the amounts to be raised by analogy of levies for use of the Sugar Board under Clause 7. I hope I understood my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary rightly when he said that, so far as this Bill is concerned, those are all the "charges to taxation of those Communities" which are authorised by this Resolution. On the assumption that that is so, he then went on and made a very important communication to the House. He said that if there is in future to be an addition to the forms of direct Community taxation—for example, if there is to be an addition to what will become "own resources", in the jargon of the Community—it will be necessary for the House to act under Clause 1(3).
But if one looks at Clause 1(3) one finds not a financial procedure but simply the recognition that such and such


a treaty is to be one of the treaties for the purpose of the Bill. So merely by recognising the fact that a new agreement, an additional agreement, has been made in Brussels, we shall automatically and without further financial procedures—unless we have to amend an existing Finance Act, as in the case of V.A.T. because of the quality of the tax is altered—apart from that exception, we shall find that automatically an addition has been made to the burden upon the subject, and that new taxation is in force without going through any of the valves which the House has established for that purpose.

Mr. English: The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that in the part of the Bill upon which he quoted the Financial Secretary, it does not even have to be a treaty of the Communities; it can be any treaty if Her Majesty, by Order in Council, declares it shall be regarded as such under that procedure; and that is conclusive in law.

Mr. Powell: Perhaps the hon. Member could have even gone further and pointed out that under the Bill what is not a treaty can be regarded as a treaty if an Order in Council so proposes and this House passes it. Thus any sort of agreement which is treated by Order in Council as a treaty for the purpose of the Bill can, unless a qualitative alteration in our existing tax law is requisite, automatically and without further financial proceedings increase taxation.
Then there is another aspect, which in this case is separately spelt out in paragraph (b) of the Ways and Means Resolution, which is not without its importance. It is one of the historic rules of this House that a Resolution is required not only for increasing the burden upon the subject but for permitting the receipt by Ministers of the Crown of sums which have not been raised in taxation, this being one of the methods by which this House has maintained a grip upon all the finance which was at the disposal of ministers. It has not been permissible, without specific resolution, for moneys to be received except by passing through the gateway of a Resolution.
Thus, in future, the taxation will take place without the customary procedures; the expenditure will take place without those procedures; and the appropriation

in aid, if I may import that phrase, will take place without those procedures. We are abrogating, for the purposes of Community taxation and Community expenditure, the entire apparatus of financial control which the House has erected and maintained.
I was glad to hear from my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary that even if the Resolution is passed in its present form, it will nevertheless be possible for the House in Committee to consider, in detail and fully, whether the procedure for payments into and out of the Consolidated Fund should not nevertheless be altered and the normal procedure reinstated. I assume that my hon. Friend made that statement upon advice and after consultation with the Chair. It is certainly a matter of satisfaction to know that we are not this evening parting with this question of fundamental importance for the last time in our study of the Bill. Instead, this is the first occasion when this question is opened and we can follow it up when we come to the Bill's Clauses. Nevertheless it would be far better that the House should mark its view at this stage rather than accept Resolutions which in themselves represent the virtual supersession of our financial procedures and controls.
In this I appeal to my right hon. and hon. Friends, whatever may be their own view as to the advantage or otherwise of this country acceding to the Community, because I believe that we have before us a House of Commons matter which can be considered, and without prejudice, even by those who differ upon the main point; for I am sure that there is none of my right hon. or hon. Friends—although he is not present, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) said this specifically—who would not wish the maximum scrutiny and control by this House, the maximum opportunity for debate, to be maintained.
Therefore, I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends not to view the decision upon these Resolutions as being a yea or nay to the Community but as being the first chance we shall have together, whatever is the ultimate outcome, to improve the opportunities of the House of Commons and to retain as much as possible of the control and scrutiny of the House of Commons over taxation and expenditure.
In that connection, I follow up, briefly, some interesting remarks of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. My hon. Friend mentioned that our Expenditure Committee, even though payments were made not upon Votes but out of the Consolidated Fund, would nevertheless be able to address itself to those payments as if they had been payments made upon Votes of this House.
I wonder if I might follow the implications of that statement a little further. When payments are made at present, whether by statutory authority out of the Consolidated Fund or, in the overwhelming majority of cases, by Vote and appropriation, the Committees of this House, from the Expenditure Committee right through to the Public Accounts Committee, are able to be seized of every aspect of the raising and spending of that money. Nothing is withdrawn from their power of control. They have power to send for persons and papers, and the Comptroller and Auditor General exercises a jealous audit over expenditures and reports accordingly.
Hon. Members will wish to be clear whether what my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary is saying is that this House will have the same opportunities of investigating and, as it were, auditing the expenditure of the moneys which are to be raised and charged on or paid into the Consolidated Fund under these Resolutions. I am sure that, if he can confirm that, he will relieve many anxieties. However, it raises a problem. For every expenditure which is now inquired into by any of the Committees of this House, there is a responsible Minister on the Treasury Bench who can be called to account. It is because of that that all these procedures exist and have their effectiveness. I find it difficult to understand as well as to imagine how a Minister on the Front Bench can take responsibility for the "own resources" of the Community and their expenditure in the way that Ministers have to take responsibility for the expenditures which this House has authorised hitherto. I find it difficult to understand and difficult to imagine how the procedures of audit and investigation which this House has extorted from the Executive and built up over the last three

centuries can be applied to the European Economic Community.
When my hon. Friend was speaking, it seemed to me that nothing less than that would really satisfy hon. Members on both sides of this House, whatever their opinions might be about the advantages or disadvantages of membership of the Community—

Mr. Marten: Before my right hon. Friend leaves that point, there is one other aspect with regard to the Expenditure Committee. I asked my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary whether the Expenditure Committee could go over to Europe, and he said "Yes". That implies that the Committee could call for persons and papers. To what extent does our writ run in foreign countries to call for papers and persons?

Mr. Jenkin: So that there is no doubt about this, I stress to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) that I did not say that at all. I said that it was a matter for the Chairman of the Committee and for the House to decide at the time.

Mr. Marten: Mr. Marten rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. We must not have too many interjections, one on top of another. I think that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) ought to be allowed to continue his speech.

Mr. Marten: But if the Chairman of a Committee or Sub-Committee decided to do that, what power would he have to go and what power would he have to call for persons and papers? The answer is, none at all.

Mr. Powell: Perhaps I could follow up the line of thought of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). I have the greatest respect for the powers and responsibilities of the Chairmen of Committees of this House. But the Chairman of a Committee cannot make a Minister on the Treasury Bench responsible for a matter over which Her Majesty's Government, though they may have a voice in it, do not have control, as they have control over all the financial matters which hitherto this House has


investigated and over which this House has hitherto exercised control.
I end upon that word "control". My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary used two expressions which I want to isolate. He spoke of the "theoretical control" of this House over expenditure which our existing procedures give us. He went on to say that "the reality has long since departed" from those procedures. This debate will be amply worthwhile if the House can bring home to the Government the fact that there is a profound misconception behind those statements.
True, the forms of control are not used in the same way as they were 50 or 250 years ago. But the rights of control which are crystallised and enshrined in our financial procedures are still what gives this House the means, if and when it wishes, of calling the Executive to account; and calling to account runs the whole gamut from asking for an explanation to forcing the resignation of a Minister. Hon. Members who have been in this House any length of time can recall from their experience cases from one end of that spectrum to the other.
The financial rights of this House which will have to be abrogated if Britain joins the Community and which are being prejudiced, far more than is necessary even for that purpose, by these Resolutions and this Bill are not a matter of theory or custom. They are of the essence of Ministerial responsibility to this House and of the responsibility of this House to the country. It is that fact which gives a central importance to this debate and to the votes in which the debate will end. I repeat that they are votes essentially open to all, whatever view they take of the expediency of British membership.

7.38 p.m.

Mr. Douglas Jay: The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) said that these were remarkable Resolutions. I agree with him. They are also unprecedented and, in my view, indefensible.
The Financial Secretary made a remarkable speech. He admitted with what Mr. Stanley Baldwin once called "appalling frankness" that, whatever these Resolutions did, they would give power to the authorities of the Community to increase the whole existing range of E.E.C. taxes on the British

public without any authority from or reference to this House.
As the right hon. Gentleman has just shown, that is only one part of what we shall be doing if we pass these Resolutions. Equally remarkable were the arguments that the Financial Secretary advanced for making this sweeping surrender of parliamentary aunthority. The hon. Gentleman said that, if we were to join the Community, it was necessary for us to impair and damage the authority of Parliament in this way. In my view, that is a very strong argument for not joining the Community on these terms. Then he appeared to say that the forms of financial control by this House are all very well in theory but that they have lost all substance and practical effect. He inferred from that that we should not seek to re-establish the substance and reality but we should now get rid of the forms as being merely outworn relics of what this House used to do. That seems another incredible argument for giving away some of the essential authority of this Parliament.
Thirdly, he argued that because, in his language, the Community was entitled to certain forms of finance and resources, it would be wholly inappropriate for this House to have any authority to amend or reject a proposal. In his view it is inappropriate for the House to have control over such matters. It is extraordinary that the Financial Secretary of any Government should use such arguments. I never expected to hear them used here or anywhere else.
The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has rightly said that by this Resolution we would be abrogating the major part of the financial powers of Parliament. What he did not go on to do was to ask to whom are we surrendering these powers to tax the British people? At this point my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis), in his most eloquent and convincing speech, fell into one error. It is a point on which a number of hon. Members are not wholly clear, even though the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) tells us that we have all understood the subject in every particular for many years. I am not sure that even he understood this point.
My hon. Friend kept referring to the Council of Ministers and to the British


Minister representing us on that Council as being the authority which takes decisions in all these cases involving taxation of the British people. It is much worse than that. It is not just the Council of Ministers which issues binding regulations and decisions imposing taxation on the subject. The Commission also has the power to do that. If hon. Members look through the famous 42 volumes, on which my right hon. Friend is an expert, they will find that a large number of these regulations and decisions are imposed not by the Council at all but by the Commission.
We had another valuable admission of appalling frankness from the Solicitor-General in the Second Reading debate when he agreed that I was correct in saying that the Commission has the power to issue regulations, directives and decisions which are binding without any authority from any Ministers. It is worth emphasising that this Commission is appointed, not in any way elected. It is not responsible to the Council of Ministers or to any particular Government. This is the body with which we are dealing, as I am sure the Liberal Party was aware before making the decision it did the other night.
This Commission has the power among other things, to impose taxation on all of us. The Financial Secretary said that it does not matter very much because it involved only a narrow area. He said twice that the area was so narrow that Parliament need not bother. As I understand, it includes all the agricultural levies—that is the imposition of food taxes on the population of Great Britain, which both the Liberal and Labour Parties have resisted for the last 100 years. That is a fairly wide area!
In addition, there is the imposition of levies in the coal and steel industry. We have all learned in recent weeks that the coal industry is not exactly a narrow section of our national economy. Let us consider some of these volumes. Part 20 refers to beef and veal. The regulations are binding in their entirety and directly applicable to us all. Regulation 1025/68 of the Commission imposes levies on beef and veal. Regulation 1072/68 of the Commission fixes components for calculating the levy on certain frozen beef and veal; Regulation 642/69 of the Commission again imposes in effect taxes on the meat which our

public would have to eat. I could go on for some time with that volume alone which gives details of the regulations of the Commission.
Another volume deals with cereals and Regulation 156/67 of the Commission determines the prices and levies for cereals, flour and so on. That deals with bread which I would have thought was a fairly important element in the social and economic affairs of a modern community. Regulation 2574/67 determines refunds on cereals. It goes on with a whole series of regulations dealing with export subsidies and incidentally with what they call "the de-naturing of wheat", which means making it unfit for human consumption because there is too much to be sold at the exorbitant prices charged within the Commission. I could go on with this all evening. I turn next to the volume dealing with budgetary policy. Decision No. 2650/70 of the Commission determines the rate of the levies to be applied in the financial year 1971.
That is what we would normally call taxation and it would be achieved by a Finance Bill. I could quote another 10 Resolutions of the Commission affecting levies on coal and steel. When the regulations are studied it will be seen that if we were members of the Community and we had received a report like the Wilberforce Report of last week it would, so far as I can see—and the Solicitor-General can tell me if I am wrong—have been quite impossible for the Government to accept and apply it. The levies on coal would be determined by the Commission. If the National Coal Board is not allowed to raise the price of coal and the Government are not allowed to pay a subsidy, I should like to know how the Wilberforce recommendations could have been applied.
The same is true with sugar dealt with in No. 39 of the volumes. Regulation 537/68 of the Commission determines the levies on sugar. Another, 578/69, also determines levies on sugar and molasses with the obvious effect that that will have on the price of sugar. The same is true of the taxation of tobacco and various levies and premiums relating to tobacco.
In addition to all the other criticisms, it is therefore vital to realise that what we are being asked to do on the evidence


on the volumes which have been circulated and the statements made by the Financial Secretary is to hand over the powers of this House for taxing the British people and financial control over the expenditure of funds to a major extent not even to a Council of Ministers who are in some indirect sense responsible to this Parliament but to a Commission of officials who are in no way responsible to us or to the British electorate and in no real sense responsible to anyone. It seems almost incredible that any of us should wish to do this and even more incredible that we could be convinced by the arguments of the Financial Secretary this afternoon. I should be very surprised if the Government find anyone tonight sincerely voting for these Resolutions if they really understand what they mean.

7.50 p.m.

Sir Robin Turton: I think the House knows my views on this matter. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think that most of the issues which have been discussed, such as those discussed by the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis), can be discussed again in Committee. I want to confine myself rather to what I call procedural points in the hope that, however much we may differ about going into or not going into the Community, the Government may think over what is the best way of putting these problems to the House.
The Way and Means Resolution, as the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said, is a complete innovation. The idea that the people of this country can be taxed and this House have no remedy at all nor any opportunity to put its view about a tax, whether it is an agricultural levy which reflects on the price of food or a Customs duty which may affect our relations with a country overseas, is quite foreign to this House. My right hon. Friends in the Government have to think how they can work this with the least breach of precedent.
The Financial Secretary said that this happens to Customs duties and agricultural levies, but he gave me an assurance that it does not happen with V.A.T. I am sure that when he gave me that

assurance he thought that he was giving me a correct answer, but I should like whoever winds up the debate to check whether it is absolutely right. I appreciate that in the next Budget and the next Finance Bill we shall deal with the imposition of V.A.T. I also know that in Brussels at the moment they are proceeding towards harmonisation of V.A.T. by a certain date. Whether in 1975 or 1978, it will be the law throughout the Community so that all members of the Community who have different coverage provisions will have to alter them. I want to know whether that particular part of V.A.T. will come under what I call the automatic procedure and not the procedure by Order.
It strikes me that one of the strengths of the case made by the Financial Secretary when he was dealing with expenditure was in his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). The Financial Secretary said that that can be dealt with by the Committee on expenditure. There is however, no Committee of this House that can deal with this taxation problem. In the 1970–71 Session the Select Committee on Procedure looked at this very great weakness in our present procedures. Very much on the strength of the evidence given by the right hon. and learned Gentleman who is at present Mr. Speaker, it recommended that there should be a Select Committee, or a select sub-committee, on taxation so that these matters could be inquired into.
I remind the Government of that recommendation. Nothing has been done about it. It seems that if we are to have this complete innovation—which is a travesty of parliamentary proceedings—and taxes are to be imposed on the subject completely automatically, the Government ought at least to consider whether that recommendation should be adopted and that there should be a Select Committee on Taxation which would always be inquiring into changes being made or suggested and which would report to the House.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will the right hon. Gentleman go a step further? Will he ask, should the Government agree to his suggestion to set up a committee, if under the Rome Treaty and present E.E.C. rulings, we could have such a committee?

Sir Robin Turton: The hon. Member has made a contribution to the debate. Now he has made another which I am sure that the Government will answer. I may deal with that point at the end of my observations.
On the question of expenditure I can see the point that contributions to the European Investment Bank and that type of expenditure should come under the Consolidated Fund statutory procedure, just as at the moment the Civil List, salaries of judges and interest on the National Debt do, because that is the kind of expenditure we would not normally expect to be subject to debate. In the old days in Supply debates we did not expect that kind of question to be raised. But I should have thought that the agricultural contribution was expenditure of an entirely different nature about which the House should have complete information and power by vote to control.
I was greatly encouraged by what the Financial Secretary said about how these matters could all be taken up and improved upon at a later stage. It would appear that if one were to alter the arrangement proposed in Clause 2 one could take out the agricultural contribution and have it dealt with by the time-honoured methods by which we normally authorise expenditure. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary said that this contribution is expenditure which the Committee on Expenditure would be able to look at. The House will realise that that Committee has to examine the five-year forward look. I hope that whoever winds up the debate will inform us whether into the five-year forward look the Treasury expects to put our obligations under the E.E.C. It is very important, if the House is to have proper knowledge and control of this expenditure, that it should be put quite clearly so that the House can understand it.
On the point made by the hon. Member for West Ham, North, the weakness of the Treaty of Accession is that, unlike nearly every other member of the Six, in our treaty we did not make special provision for parliamentary proceedings. I have with me Mr. Michael Niblock's book on "National Parliaments in Community Decision-making". He says that all these countries put in special provisions for dealing with their Parliaments,

particularly in Germany, where the Bundestag had a special protocol for this purpose. Germany went in for a rather fruitless attempt to control the E.E.C. by the "Council of Elders for Integration", which, unfortunately for a council of elders, had a very short life.
In his book Mr. Niblock said:
Those responsible for the initiative in this matter appear to have two prime concerns in mind: first, they were anxious about the clearly adverse consequences which the process of integration was having on the system of democratic government in West Germany as in other Community countries.
If anything, he is a pro-Marketeer. This is his considered opinion. The second thing he mentioned was that they sought
greater co-ordination between the various actions and initiatives which were being taken in the Bundestag in relation to Community affairs.
Sad to relate, the Council of Elders died a natural death.
But the Bundestag has argued and debated with and controlled the Commission on the variable cereal levies. For two years, it fought that and by its committees it stopped it. Some of the Parliaments have attacked the gross extravagance of the Agricultural Fund. Whatever view one takes—whether one is against joining or, like some of my hon. Friends, all in favour—one must demand that this Parliament should have as much control as, perhaps even greater control than, those other members of the Community.
Therefore, I beg my right hon. and learned Friend, who has as much love and respect for Parliament as I have, to take this to heart and, in the weeks before we reach that part of the Bill, think how we can ensure proper parliamentary control. It must be something rather greater than the pre-legislation committee which was thrown at us last week. Of course it is a good thing to see draft regulations, but this Chamber must have the power to try to say, "No".
As with my illustration of the ground-nuts debate, one can try to reduce a Vote because one believes that there has been mismanagement and extravagance. This is what we are here for. It is because I believe that this is not achieved by these Resolutions that I cannot support them in the Lobby tonight, although I can at least wait and see what will happen.

8.05 p.m.

Mr. Michael English: Before coming to my Amendment, which Mr. Speaker has been kind enough to call, I cannot refrain from a comment upon the remarks of the Financial Secretary. He went into the great technicalities of the difference between the Consolidated Fund and the annual Vote and said that, because the direct procedures of the House were unsatisfactory, in his view, an Expenditure Committee system had been created.
That was one of the reasons for the creation of the Expenditure Committee, but the hon. Gentleman never mentioned that that Committee does not discuss expenditure out of the Consolidated Fund. The basic simple difference between the Consolidated Fund expenditure and the annual Vote expenditure is whether we discuss it. We do not annually discuss the Queen's expenditure, for instance.
If the hon. Gentleman is now enunciating the theory that the Expenditure Committee should discuss expenditure from the Consolidated Fund, I will be most pleased to tell my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), who I am sure will be fascinated to realise that he has found yet another channel for discussing the Civil List. He was on the Estimates Committee and the Expenditure Committee for many years and came off only recently. I am sure he would immediately go back on once this news was given to him, and I should be glad to offer him the seat which he used to have and which I now have. But we do not discuss expenditure out of the Consolidated Fund. We do not discuss the Queen and the Civil List or the judges and their activities annually. There are things that we do not discuss and there are things that we do discuss.
We discuss education, defence, agriculture and a host of other things. No one says that we will end subsidies to agriculture, stop paying for defence or stop educating children merely because we discuss a matter annually. There is nothing anti-European in saying that we should discuss this matter annually as well.
The German Bundestag not only discusses these matters annually but requires its Government to report on them annually and, just in case the report is

inaccurate, it arranges to have an observer from its upper house, the Bundesrat, present in the Council of Ministers of the E.E.C.—a right which, I am glad to note, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster felt it was not necessary to gain for Britain. He obviously thought that we should have fewer rights than the Germans.
It is primarily some matters of the law that I wish to discuss today. I must make it clear to many hon. Members who are making the assumption that they are discussing matters which will be dealt with in the usual ways of English law that they are not. It is often said that the Continental system is a Roman law system. It has been equally often said by hon. Gentlemen who are in favour of our joining the Common Market that there is very little difficulty in reconciling the Roman law systems with the English law system.
I agree, so long as one is speaking of what is called the civil law. But there is one feature of a Roman law system which is quite different: that is, in the Roman law description, a system of public law. It does not make the assumption that any person can enforce any piece of the law against any other person or the assumption, which is made in English law, that any person can enforce the law by going to court.
Let me give two examples of what can be done in English law. There is the famous case in law of Bowles v. The Bank of England early in this century when an individual said "A mere Resolutiton of the House of Commons has caused me to suffer taxation. This is illegal." He produced cases to prove that the House of Commons alone could not by such a Resolution impose taxation. As a result, Parliament had to pass an Act to allow this House to do so for a very short period of six months when we pass a Budget. Another example is that of A. P. Herbert, who prosecuted the House of Commons for a breach of the licensing laws because he wanted to prove that the House was in breach of those laws.
Any individual can do this but one cannot necessarily do it in a European State, because it is not 1,000 years of British history but 2,000 years of Roman law which includes the history of several


authoritarian empires—the Roman, German and French empires and the Russian empire too, for that matter. That is exactly what has, as a result, impinged into this treaty.
We have all been deeply concerned because by these treaties and the Bill implementing them there is to be imposed upon us a system of law which, as the Solicitor-General said, is self-executing. It certainly is. Not only is it self-executing but there is a body there to execute it. The Commission is given legal personality and may impose upon any individual citizen any item of this law; but the reverse is not true and that is the difference, because we have here a system in which not all the law is enforceable by everyone. This will be extremely important.
I shall go into the details during the Committee stage but there are four reasons why proceedings may not be brought by anyone. Generally speaking, proceedings cannot be brought by individuals unless it is a matter of individual and direct concern to them. Secondly, proceedings may not be brought against anyone. One cannot, for example, bring any proceedings at all against the Assembly of the Community. Thirdly, the court of the Community does not always have jurisdiction to deal with particular types of case. Fourthly, that court finally, even if it has jurisdiction, may not always be able to enforce its decision. For example, it may decide till the cows come home that France, Germany or some other member was in breach of the law but it would have no means of enforcement in theory or in practice, unlike the Supreme Court of the United States which can enforce the law even against a State of the United States. It is, therefore, a strange and very theoretical system of law. One should bear that in mind when discussing this or any other subject.
One is literally saying that if the Community acts unlawfully, if it creates a tax which is unlawful under the organisation of the Community, it is not necessarily true that an individual can say, as Bowles once said—although a member State could—"I am sorry, you are trying to take taxation from me which is contrary to your own system of law 'There is no means by which that can be done

because one would be proving that the State was acting illegally, which in English law one can do.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Motion, at end add:
Provided that nothing in this Resolution shall authorise any charge unless it has also been approved by the Assembly of those Communities.
In moving my Amendment I am afraid I wish to make a very substantial criticism of the Leader of the House. I warned him that I might be doing this. He has said he believes
that this House has all the necessary documents for it to proceed to a Second Reading of the Bill next week."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th February, 1972; Vol. 830, c. 1583.]
That may or may not be true. It is certainly not true that the House has all the necessary documents to proceed to this Motion or the Committee stage. I will explain why.
The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir R. Turton) quoted from Mr. Niblock's book, "The E.E.C. National Parliaments and Community Decision-making". Many of us are forced to do so. I wish to refer to what has been the principal argument between the Council and the Assembly in the whole history of the European Communities. Nowhere has that argument been translated into English for us, yet it is highly relevant to this subject.
If in the rest of these discussions I quote from an unofficial publication, it is for the simple reason that the Assembly resolutions relevant to the topic have not been translated by the Foreign Office and made available to us. I realise the difficulties of translating all these documents and the time that would take, but the Government should have realised that that would take a long time. To quote from Mr. Niblock's book, in October, 1969, the European Commission made various proposals for budgetary procedures to deal with these very subjects with which we are dealing. The proposals were not greatly liked then by the Assembly because they largely left the Assembly of the European Community out of the problem. They said "No. Basically this is a matter for the Council of Ministers", and the Commission revised its proposal accordingly. It agreed that the Assembly should have a power such as we have.
The whole object of my Amendment is that if we are to give powers away from this House, from this elected legislative assembly, let us at least give them to another assembly of elected legislators rather than simply to a Council of Ministers, a council of members of the Executives of various States. The Council in December, 1969, agreed to give the Assembly powers from 1st January, 1975, but then excluded 95 per cent, of the total expenditure of the Community from its jurisdiction. All that the Council allowed it to do was roughly to decide its own expenditure, the expenditure as it were of its own officers—and the French disagreed even to that.
In February, 1970, the Assembly threatened to recommend to every Parliament that it should not even ratify the treaty laws and decisions which have been quoted today. The Assembly said that
If the fundamental decisions defined on 10th December, 1969, were not accepted by the Council, finding itself thus unable to advise national Parliaments to ratify the proposals which are submitted to them, it would use all means at its disposal to make sure that those decisions are respected.
In February, 1970, the Council of Ministers limited the Assembly. It arrived at a very complex formula. It even limited the power of the Assembly over the 5 per cent. that it had been left power to discuss and approve, and it started to compile that famous document, the Treaty of Luxembourg. From March, 1970, however, when it was still discussing it, the Council still refused to interpret what the system, by then an almost complete document, meant. The President of the Council gave an interpretation, personally as he put it, that the Council of Ministers finally decided the budget. In April, 1970, the Luxembourg Treaty was signed and in May, 1970, the Assembly arrived at a resolution which is the basis of my Amendment. The Council invited the national Parliaments that were about to ratify the Treaty of Luxembourg
to take account of the attitude formulated by the European Parliament…and defend the need to guarantee real Parliamentary control over the common resources.
That is precisely the point of my Amendment.
Let me say why the issue is a somewhat confusing one. Let me take Article

203 of the Treaty of Rome as amended by the Treaty of Luxembourg. I hope that the Minister who is assiduously taking notes will realise that I am not referring to the temporary procedure of Article 203a. I am aware of that but, for the sake of simplicity and the time of the House, I am talking of the permanent procedure which is due to start on 1st January, 1975.
The first paragraph of Article 203 states that the financial year is the calendar year. That is highly sensible. The second paragraph says that
Each institution of the Community shall before 1st July draw up its estimates of expenditure and that the Commission shall consolidate those estimates into a preliminary draft budget and shall attach thereto an opinion which may contain different estimates.
By the third paragraph the Commission is to
…place the preliminary draft budget before the Council not later than 1st September.…The Council shall…establish the draft budget and forward it to the Assembly.
Then we come to the fourth paragraph where the confusion begins. It says:
The draft budget shall be placed before the Assembly not later than 5th October of the year preceding that in which the budget is to be implemented. The Assembly shall have the right to amend the draft budget, acting by a majority of its members, and to propose to the Council, acting by an absolute majority of the votes cast, modifications to the draft budget relating to expenditure necessarily resulting from this Treaty or from acts adopted in accordance therewith. If, within 45 days of the draft budget being placed before it…the Assembly has adopted amendments or proposed modifications, the draft budget together with the amendments or proposed modifications shall be forwarded to the Council.
Hon. Members will note that for some reason there is a difference between amendments and proposed modifications. It is not entirely clear what that difference is.
The fifth paragraph is a little clearer. It states:
The Council may…modify any of the amendments adopted by the Assembly and shall pronounce…on the modifications proposed by the latter.
Again, there is the same distinction. Now the Council can modify amendments and pronounce upon modifications.
If, within fifteen days…the Council has modified one or more of the amendments adopted by the Assembly or has not accepted the modifications proposed by the latter, the


draft budget shall again be forwarded to the Assembly.
The real obscurity comes in paragraph 6:
Within fifteen days of the draft budget being placed before it, the Assembly, which shall have been notified of the action taken on its proposed modifications"—
not its amendments, although hitherto there has been a distinction between modifications and amendments—
shall act, by a majority of its members and three-fifths of the votes cast, on the modifications to its amendments made by the Council and shall adopt the budget accordingly. If within this period the Assembly has not acted the budget shall be deemed to be finally adopted.
The paragraph ends by stating that when the procedure provided for has been completed, the President of the Assembly shall declare that the budget has been finally adopted.
If hon. Members find themselves a little confused by all that, I assure them that they are not unique. I assure them also that the Assembly's interpretation is that the final authority that is to adopt the budget is the Assembly. The Commission of the European Communities agrees with the Assembly. When I say that the Assembly says that, I mean the Assembly unanimously. I do not mean the Socialist group only. I mean as well the Liberal group, the Christian Democrats who might be described as the Conservative group and, finally, the most Conservative of all, the Gaullists in the Assembly. But the Council of Ministers does not agree with the Assembly, not because five of them do not but merely because one of them does not, namely, France. The Council of Ministers officially, therefore, in so far as it has made a statement through M. Harmel, who was then its President, believes it is the final authority to adopt the budget. For that reason, the Assembly recommended that parliamentarians throughout Europe should, in ratifying the Treaty of Luxembourg, make the matter clear beyond doubt.
What I am asking the Government by the Amendment is whether they agree with every party in Europe as represented in the Assembly, and five out of six members of the Community's Governments, that that is the correct interpretation, or do they agree with the French goods on a substantial scale.
It is extremely important to ascertain whether we are handing over these powers to a group of executive politicians or to a group of legislative politicians in Europe. If we are to hand over the powers, most people who are pro-European, as well as those against entry into Europe, would prefer the latter. This matter is extremely important and, in relation to the technical modification I have mentioned about the period from now to 1975, I suggest that the Government could accept my Amendment at least in principle, because that is what is believed by the overwhelming majority of Europeans in Europe as well as the overwhelming majority of pro-Europeans in this House and also by those who do not wish Britain to go into the Common Market. If we do go in, let us go in as democrats and not put ourselves into an authoritarian position.
I explained earlier in reference to the enforceability of parts of the Treaty of Rome the situation which arises from the nature of the Bill. If the Government want not merely to bind this Parliament hand and foot but also to shackle it, at least let us keep the key to the shackles and not throw it away.

8.27 p.m.

Mr. John Loveridge: The hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) has said that in his opinion if we are to give away powers from this House or pass money out of our control we should do so to an assembly of politicians rather than to a group of executors. Few of us will quarrel with that view. Surely the immediate and present purpose for which we are here today is merely to provide the means for the funds which have been promised to be given in a regular manner. There is not any reason why in the long-term future development of Europe we may not consider a more powerful Assembly.

Mr. English: Would not the hon. Member agree that once one has got into a prison and the door is locked against one it is not easy, and that it would be better to ensure the door is not locked in the first place, if one wants to get out?

Mr. Loveridge: That may be so with a prison, but that is not what we are entering. We are entering a large, viable market which will enable us to sell our Government that it is not?
The hon. Member spoke about possible modifications in the Assembly, but the question really is, first of all, what are we doing now? It is not good enough to say that we hope we are not getting into a sort of prison. What we are doing now is necessary for the Government to meet the pledges which have been given. If we are to look far ahead into the future, it is up to us, from our experience and practice in this House, to make the efforts which we can to bring to the whole of the European business, which we are looking forward to entering upon, a more democratic procedure. Immediately, at the present time, we are newly joining a club, and surely the basis of joining a club must be trust between its members. The Europeans must see now that they will get the funds they have been promised and that they will get them in a regular manner.
The Amendment has cut across the undertakings given.

Mr. English: No. Let me make it quite clear. I will not have that. This is in no way an anti-European Amendment. I made the point that there might he a slight technical objection to the Amendment for the next two years, and I am sure that the Financial Secretary could amend that if he wished, but apart from that slight technical matter there is nothing whatsoever anti-European in the Amendment. I will not have that accusation made against me.

Mr. Loveridge: I am not trying to say that the hon. Member is not—

Mr. English: The Amendment would not stop up from going into Europe.

Mr. Loveridge: I am not attempting to state that the hon. Member is anti-European or not in favour of Europe. All I am trying to say is that this is a perfectly natural method of providing the system with finance.
The other European countries will pay their contributions, and they will pay them within two months of their falling due. The same must apply to us. We would be in great difficulties in meeting our obligation to pay within two months of our obligation falling due if the matter had to be the subject of discussion here on an annual Vote. Indeed, one begins to wonder how we could fairly say to

our European colleagues, whom we are about to join, "We will think out every year what we want to pay" or "We will think out whether our subscription or the promised proportion we have offered will rise or fall". We could not do that. Of course, there may well be considerable advantages to us in this method of payment, quite apart from its enabling us to meet our obligations. The value-added tax, as we know, can greatly help our exports and thus our balance of payments.
It was about the balance of payments that the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) spoke with such concern. He spoke of vast sums possibly being paid across the boundaries. What sum did he arrive at in his estimate? He spoke of £470 million. Even this figure is under £10 per head of population. In what he said he ignored the great advantages to our advanced industries which are poised ready for entry on a substantial scale, on the basis of the largest stock market in Europe being available to them. That stock market can be quickly adaptable to raise money for the enterprises required to gain advantage from the vast new market we are about to enter.
The right hon. Member for Stepney went on to compare the differences of what might be paid between the countries. There was a possible deficit from Germany to the Community budget of £130 million, a possible gain to France of £310 million; Belgium was to gain £27 million and Holland £180 million. The figure of £470 million possible deficit for us—the right hon. Gentleman's own estimate—surely is not high for those advantages which our industries may obtain, and it is reasonable therefore to think that we should contribute in some way towards the resettlement of European agriculture. In the last 10 years many have left the land in Europe. In the next 10 years many more will. When that process is through it will not be a question, as the right hon. Gentleman said, of propping up their farms. The question instead will be the propping up of our regions. If this is so, the whole system of payments about which we are speaking will surely benefit Britain.
The right hon. Member for Stepney was right to say that in the past we had suffered from balance of payments problems. He went on to say that this would


be particularly true in the future because the levies would affect us more than any other nation. Those levies are to be treated as customs duties for collection purposes. At first sight what the right hon. Member said may be plausible. We import a great deal of food from abroad; we always have. In the 70s and 80s of the last century it was an advantage to this country to import food cheaply, but the situation has changed. The destruction of our farms is no longer the great asset to us that it was. It was never an advantage to the farmers, but it may be said to have provided a base for industrial growth and for cheap food for the community.
What has happened to change this? Why do I say that the situation is different? It is because, by importing cheaply through decade after decade, we placed not only our agricultural enterprises but also our industrial enterprises at a severe disadvantage. For this reason the year after year of successive drain by importing foodstuffs that we could well have produced ourselves at home prevented our ever building up any kind of substantial reserve to meet temporary balance or payments difficulties caused by industrial expansion [An HON. MEMBER: "Before the war".] Yes, also before the war. Whenever our industry expanded rapidly, the Government were forced, because of balance of payments problems, to reduce imports and to cut off the benefits of that expansion. Every boom had the profitable and best head cut off it.
This situation is peculiar to Britain alone, because we import half our food. No other nation is in this situation. Therefore, we are at greater peril than any other country on account of the balance of payments, and always have been. The levies, in fact, will help us; they will help to push up home output of farming produce, and our own sales of farm machinery to Europeans will surely help also in curing any balance of payments problem there may be to come. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a two-way traffic though."] It is a two-way traffic, but our agricultural machinery manufacturers are extraordinarily well placed. They have already exported considerably and their chance of exporting to Europe

even more substantially over the next decade in order to help them reform their farms is substantial.
However, in spite of what I have said, I accept that a serious balance of payments problem may arise after we join Europe. I hope the Government will look at the possible solutions I put forward in the debate last week for curing this balance of payments problem. I spoke about the boundaries of the new European group. If Britain is not to suffer any more from adverse balance of payments problems across the borders of the exchanges within Europe itself, then there needs to be a boundary for balance of payments adjustments, for currency adjustments, round the whole territory of the new nations. I hope the Government will consider early negotiations with the Europeans in order to achieve this.
The right hon. Member for Stepney was critical about the loss of control and lack of knowledge by this House over the expenditure which we hope to agree this evening and the arrangements which are made. However, I remember not so long ago substantial debts being run up by the Labour Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member. Much information about those debts was kept secret between the international bankers, and not everything was brought to the attention of this House. Some of the old debts dated back to the days of our big borrowing after the war from the United States; some of them run on for as long as 50 years. We are still paying off the interest on the capital. A period of 50 years is a very long time for an obligation which does not have to come before the House in the ordinary way. That is as much of a derogation of the powers of this House as is anything which is suggested in this Resolution—which is no more than a wish to meet our proper obligations to the Europeans. I hope the Government will resist this Amendment and that this Resolution will go through in the interests of our country.

8.41 p.m.

Mr. Mark Hughes: I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Loveridge). After 15 years spent in a university trying to teach the economic history of this country over the last 70 years, I found the hon. Gentleman's exposition of the disadvantages of cheap


food curious, to say the least. His argument that a continual drain on our balance of payments and our ability to build up gold reserves was the natural and inevitable consequence of importing, cheap food is without any support by any academic economist, with one exception whom the hon. Gentleman well knows. With that one exception, the hon. Gentleman is alone in that argument. The argument that it is the need to import cheap food which presents a cut-off point on the 19th century booms in the economy has little sustained evidence to back it.

Mr. Loveridge: Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that various reports have suggested that it is practicable for British farming to save up to £250 million a year on food imports, and is not that a very substantial sum if taken over a number of years?

Mr. Hughes: I do not question that for a moment. I am arguing that the hon. Gentleman's economic analysis of the past effects of cheap food is erroneous in detail and fallacious in whole. Therefore, on that basis it is a somewhat precarious activity to place much trust in the hon. Gentleman's arguments elsewhere. He suggested at one point that an obligation for 50 years was something this House did not acknowledge. I would remind him that Consols taken out in 1754 are still paid under the Consolidated Fund legislation in this House and are still controlled by it.
There are three elements in this Amendment which are fundamental to our British history and important to the future stability of society. One fundamental is that there should be no taxation without representation. It is in this light that my own sub-Amendment, which I regret has not been called, sought to provide that if we are to have within the Assembly control of the taxation of the British people, then at least that Assembly shall be directly elected. We are not allowing the taxation of British people to be in the hands, however benign, of Whips of Government and Opposition parties together to determine who shall attend the Assembly in Europe. Whatever my respect for the usual channels, this is not the usual channel to determine who my representative and the represen

tative of every one of my constituents shall be in a democratic assembly. Therefore, when we ask for an assembly to vet taxation, we also must needs ask for a democratically elected European assembly.
In this we see the fundamental democratic problem between whether we are concerned with parliamentary democracy or with what is sometimes called assembly democracy, which is the division of powers between the legislature and the Executive. Alone of the members of either the current or the enlarged Community France retains a curious hybrid wherein the assembly is to a large extent the creature of the Executive. Under the proposals contained in the Money Resolution we become more than ever the creature of the Executive. In that way we move into a concept of democracy which may be democratic, but which is democratic in terms of the code Napoleon, not in terms of British common law. That is an enormous difference, as was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English).
This is not to be anti-European, but to recognise that there are different forms of democracy and that the Money Resolution introduces into the British form a type which is virtually unknown. When we tried to introduce this type of democracy into the American colonies in the 1760s and 1770s we brought upon our heads the American War of Independence. The American colonists went to war on precisely the sort of power of taxation which we are prepared to grant in perpetuity to the Council of Ministers of the E.E.C. without even requiring a democratic check. It is there that we press the Government, as good Europeans, to accept the need for the assembly to vet and for that assembly to be democratically elected.
It is well accepted on both sides of the House that Parliament and its institutions are at the moment held in very low esteem by many people in this country, perhaps deservedly so, because the gap between the governed and the Government, in Dunning's phrase, has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished. In those conditions the Government are again wantonly wishing to increase the gap yet further. However remote we in this House and the Treasury knights in


Whitehall may be to the ordinary constituent, the Council of Ministers and the Commission are even more remote. They appear to my constituents and to those of many, if not all, hon. Members, to be less accountable, less responsive and less responsible to the English electorate than our present masters.
When we acknowledge that already our parliamentary institutions are in some ways breaking up under the pressures, as the Financial Secretary said earlier this afternoon the powers of control over expenditure are now vestigial by means of the Estimates and Votes on Estimates. I found that an interesting constitutional theory which has not been propounded in quite such bald terms before. However, it is precisely this divorce from what people think we are doing to what the Financial Secretary told us we are not doing which gives the feeling among the electorate of having no control. To pass the Money Resolution unamended with no attempt to provide real democratic control would be yet further to press this fear on the British electorate.
In the case of the agricultural levies under the common agricultural policy I gather from the Financial Secretary that the rôle of the Government and of the House is to act merely as agents, farmers-general to the European Commission. It is a long time since any Minister of the Crown accepted the rôle of tax-farmer on behalf of an external authority. Yet under the Money Resolution this appears to be the rôle that the Financial Secretary is undertaking, recalling the days of Caesar Augustus—all the world shall be enrolled and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will go out and tax the people on behalf of some distant emperor. If that is what we are doing, let us be clear about it. I have some doubts. If we insert a check, a balance, to prevent it happening by making all such taxation subject to the approval of the Assembly and making such an Assembly directly, democratically elected, most of though by no means all the fears, about the lack of safeguards for the ordinary British people would be removed. The people would at least begin to feel that they were not buying not merely a pig in a poke but a pig in a poke without the means to cut the poke open.
This fear is strong, and in the Amendment we are trying to break it down.

It is not an anti-European Amendment. It is pro-democracy, and pro-parliamentary institutions, whether of the French form or the British. It is an Amendment favoured by every parliamentarian and every Parliament from Oslo to Rome, except one. Are the Government so to tie themselves to the Quai d'Orsay that they will find their only ally in Paris, or will they accept the Amendment, at least in spirit if not the precise wording, and permit money to be taxed from the British people only by a democratically-elected Assembly.

8.54 p.m.

Mr. Robert Adley: The hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Mark Hughes) said that he thought Parliament was held in low esteem at the moment. Might not the behaviour of certain hon. Members in their relationship towards the European legislation have contributed towards this? The hon. Member will know what I mean, and I certainly do not aim these remarks at him. But on the benches opposite are people who have long held the view that they were not interested in joining the E.E.C. Yet I now look in vain for anyone who both in 1967 and in October, 1971 voted in favour of the principle of entry because all the Labour Marketeers are absent. That may be one reason why Parliament is perhaps not held in the esteem many of us would wish.
I return to the words spoken by the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore). I do so with some temerity, for he rebuked my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary as being a new boy. Therefore, it is with the greatest diffidence that I say anything at all on the subject of the European Economic Community. The right hon. Gentleman, with many of his right hon. and hon. Friends, was hard at work this afternoon trying to re-write history. I am sorry to say these things in his absence, but what amazes me about him is his total pessimism on the entire subject of Europe. I am optimistic about the prospects for this country if we join the E.E.C. What depresses me is that the anti-Marketeers are so sure of everything being absolutely awful. I wish I could be as sure of anything as they seem to be so sure of everything in relation to the E.E.C.

Mr. Mark Hughes: Wrong quote.

Mr. Adley: I was not quoting anybody.
The analogy of warfare has been drawn once or twice in the debate. There is only one significant relationship between warfare and the Resolution and the whole question of the E.E.C. It is a relationship of difference. Warfare is generally a reaction of a country faced with a sudden situation. Entry into the E.E.C. will in its way be as significant as, if not more significant than, any war we have fought in our history. But we are doing it carefully, well-prepared and with our eyes open. I do not believe that the dismal Jimmies on the Opposition benches will he proved right.
When the time comes, all the remarks about burdens of payments made by the right hon. Member for Stepney could be seen in a different light. If we use the word "investment" instead of "burden", if we regard the monies we shall spend as an investment for the future, we are far more likely correctly to assess the effect that joining the E.E.C. will have on this country in 20 years' time.
I now turn to the Resolutions. It is my understanding of the own-resources system that it is basic to the character and political purpose of the Community. That is what differentiates the Common Market and a simple customs union. Therefore, I fail to see how anybody who has supported entry into the Community over the years can tonight vote against the Resolutions we are supposed to be discussing.
We have also heard about payments to the Consolidated Fund, as expressed in the Money Resolution, being wholly exceptional, in that the House cannot comment upon the way in which the money is spent. I do not claim to be an expert in these matters, but is not the servicing of the National Debt a function with many historic similarities which prove that what we are doing tonight is not something the House has has never done before? For instance, are not the payments we make to the Civil List or the salaries and pensions we pay to judges one of the numerous items—if one dug deeply one could find other examples—on which the Government are taking action in expenditures of money which do not require day-to-day scrutiny by the House? But even if we should be taking a step which is new, which the House has never before taken, I am bound to refer to a letter published in the

Bristol Evening Post two days ago, which simply said:
I have up until recently been an anti-Marketeer, but having observed the activities of the last few weeks if I am now faced with a choice between control from the E.E.C. or the T.U.C. I shall no longer be an anti-Marketeer.
That is a feeling which many people in this country have gained in the last two or three weeks.
In the last 50 years we may have slowly but inevitably been losing a certain amount of control over our day-to-day activities, but I would rather have a small share in a big decision, as we are likely to have in our future in Europe, than a full share in no decision at all, which is what we are faced with otherwise as regards our future in the world.
Anyone who has even half studied what the Economic Community is all about over the years must have known that in due course, if a British Government were able satisfactorily to negotiate terms which they could present to Parliament, this would require implementing legislation. The world, our country, and this House know that we shall enter the E.E.C. That being so, we surely must give the Government the ways and means with which to implement the legislation.

9.3 p.m.

Mr. Eric Deakins: I hope that the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley) will forgive me, for I shall not follow his remarks. Time is pressing and we need to finish the debate in good time. But I agree with him that this is an unprecedented step. That was not an original statement, because it was a point made by a number of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen. As many hon. Members have pointed out today and last week, the fact is that Parliament's sole reason for existence is taxation against redress of grievances. We are told that we shall lose a little of our power of taxation, but only a little bit. Those were the words of the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary. But that was what the nursemaid said of her illegitimate baby—"It is only a little one."
Once one has started on this road of giving up taxation powers, there is no end to the powers that may be given up thereafter. In addition, we shall have no power of redress of grievances at


Community level, a point about which some of us would be concerned. We are told by the Financial Secretary that we shall be able to debate these matters on Supply. That is very nice of him. I understand that Supply is mainly Opposition time and not Government time. We are told also that the Expenditure Committee will be able to look into these matters. But in both cases, to what effect, if ultimately, after all discussions, investigations and visits to Europe, this Parliament will have no power to say nay to charges on the Consolidated Fund?
We are told that a value-added tax, because of the way we shall introduce it in the Finance Bill this year, will be subject to parliamentary approval should there be any future changes required of us for the purposes of providing the own resources in the Commmunity budget? But there will be no need for the Community to suggest changes in the form of the value-added tax. All that it need do is to say that it wants a bigger rate of the value-added tax than it is currently levying. As I understand it, that would not be subject to the full approval, investigation and scrutiny of this House.
What about the control of the Community's "own resources" expenditure? We have not been told very much about that so far, but I think that we shall have to be. I see two dangers. The first is that, instead of hon. Members saying that this Parliament needs more power, there will be an increasing number of hon. Members on both sides, especially the federalists among us, who will say that we need more powers for a European Parliament. But, once one starts on that very easy slippery path towards giving more powers to a European Parliament, one creates all sorts of complications in the relationships between this Parliament and its powers and the powers of a European Parliament.
It is for that reason that I am not in favour of the Amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) My hon. Friend has not fully thought out all the implications and consequences which would flow from a decision on the part of this House to cede its sovereignty to another legislative assembly. That could create complications in the future.
The second danger that I see lies in the process of harmonisation which the Financial Secretary tended to dismiss by saying simply, "But that is what is intended". What is the position if one Government of this country agree to a harmonisation of taxation which then, presumably, becomes binding on successive Governments? Is not that a breach of our constitutional principle which says that no Parliament can bind its successor? Surely the only alternative facing a future Government who disagreed with that harmonisation policy would be to withdraw from the E.E.C.
I said that I could see two dangers. However, there is a third. Harmonisation is a self-generating process. The more that is achieved, the more it will be desired to achieve, once the federalists in this House and in other legislative assemblies in Western Europe get the bit between their teeth. We see a process whereby more and more of the powers and sovereignty of this House are ceded to the Community, and not only in matters of indirect taxation. If it is possible to harmonise indirect taxation, as we are supposed to be doing, there is no reason why direct taxation should not be harmonised, and I believe that this will come eventually.
I believe that it behoves everyone who can see a decade or two ahead to point out these dangers now, even if at the end of the day people say that they accept them and feel that the future of this Parliament in relation to the European Parliament will be very much like the relationship between one of our present county councils and this House. If that is the view of right hon. and hon. Members opposite, they are entitled to hold it, of course. But it is not one which is shared by many hon. Members on this side of the House.

9.9 p.m.

Mr. Michael Foot: My hon. Friend the Member for Waltham-stow, West (Mr. Deakins), like many other hon. Members who have taken part in the debate, illustrated how essential it was that we should have this extended debate on the Ways and Means Resolution and on the Money Resolution. If it had been left to the Government to order these affairs, these debates would have taken place last Thursday evening


and some of them would have been compressed into a very short space of time. However, it was thought by the Opposition that we should ask for the best part of a full day in order to discuss these matters. We believed that both the Ways and Means Resolution and the Money Resolution were unprecedented and, therefore, that we needed more time to discuss them. Everyone who has listened to the debate will agree that it is right that the House should have had more time, whatever our views may be about entry to the Community. It is necessary for the House to know what is being done and to be able to explain to the people what we are doing.
Some hon. Members have suggested that everything is clear and simple, needing no explanation. The Financial Secretary put his case very courteously and the suggestion now is that if we do not understand it we must be simple. In the debate the other day the Minister who was most emphatic in saying that everything was plainer than any pikestaff was the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, which in a way seems to be the exception that proves the rule. I do not believe that any Minister is well advised in suggesting that the Bill is easily understandable. It has to be examined most carefully and the more we examine it the more I believe that we will discover we will have to amend and scrutinise it.
It is a pity that we have not had any assistance today from the Liberal Party. I hope that it is not contracting out of the Committee stage and the general proceedings on the Bill altogether.

Mr. Russell Johnston: indicated dissent.

Mr. Foot: I am glad to see the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Russell Johnston), who is the sole representative of the Liberal Party tonight, disagreeing, because it is deplorable that no Member from the Liberal Party has sought to participate in this debate. We are discussing something for which Liberals have fought hard—the whole question of the rights of Parliament and its taxing rights. We are discussing principles of first importance for the future of parliamentary institutions and it is remarkable that there should have been such a debate

with no Member from the Liberal Party attempting to make a contribution. We will simply have to carry on without any assistance from them.
We are grateful for one statement made by the Financial Secretary which underlines what was said by the Solicitor-General during the debate on the Treaty of Accession: that the Bill is amendable in every Clause and subsection, in every particular. The whole thing is wide open for the Amendments which all hon. Members may wish to table, we are told, We are grateful for that undertaking because it was possible for people to read the Money Resolution or the Ways and Means Resolution in a way which might be considered restrictive. Indeed, there were some parts of these Resolutions which were not easily understandable unless conceivably they had that purpose. We are glad to have the hon. Gentleman's assurance that nothing of the sort is intended and that nothing of the sort can happen.
One of the things that has emerged which is of special interest in view of the differences of opinion on this subject, and which I repeat for the benefit of those who may not have heard the whole debate, is that it has been emphasised from both sides, from those in favour of entry and those against, that there are different ways of carrying out what may be the intention of the Government. That is what the Minister means when he says that we can amend every Clause. It casts some slight reflection on and requires some slight modification of what was said by the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentleman rather gave the impression when he spoke on Second Reading that the Bill was perfectly drafted and that anyone who thought he could see any improvement to be made in any part of it would be in for a very fierce parliamentary lesson. We now have it from the wiser Financial Secretary that of course no one on the Government benches is so foolish as to think that.
We have had illustrations in the debates of what I should describe as the "beyond the call of duty" Clauses or subsections. There are several portions of the Bill in which the Government have gone much further than is required even for entry. There are several parts


of which it is said that other Parliaments in the Six have provisions for scrutiny over matters which are eventually to be submitted to the Council of Ministers. We do not find such provisions in this have gone much further than is required Bill. Therefore, in the set of Amendments—and there may be a large number—there are some which can appeal as much to those who wish to see us enter the Community as to those who wish us to stay out.
There is another category of Amendments by which Ministers in carrying out duties under this Measure would be called upon to take account of the expression of opinion by the Council of Ministers or the Brussels Commission. There is a category arising partly from the discussion today. It has been made clear by hon. Members in all parts of the House who are opposed to entry—the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), for example, who has made proposals which presumably will appear in the form of Amendments in Committee—that Parliament, instead of being deprived of its powers of control in the crude, reckless and comprehensive manner stated in the Bill, could act by some different arrangements. Those arrangements from the point of view of some of us may not be satisfactory, but they would be better for the maintenance of proper control by Parliament. For any hon. Member who has missed this part of the debate, that opens up a whole special field of Amendments.
There are other Amendments which might be moved by those who wish to alter some of the terms which have been agreed. There are other Amendments which we hope would establish that Parliament will not surrender even those powers which the pro-Europeans think are absolutely essential. We can argue about these. There can be a whole variety of Amendments. I hope that none of my hon. Friends will imagine that debates in Committee will be only on Amendments moved by those who want to alter some of these provisions. There will be Amendments to mitigate the disaster. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) has moved today an extremely important one. It says that we should not surrender the powers of control over taxation as

proposed in the Ways and Means and Money Resolutions unless there is to be reference of those matters to a European Assembly.
The reason why I would not wish to support my hon. Friend's Amendment at this stage is that I realise it has two major drawbacks. One is that if we secured the arrangements whereby these matters had to be referred to the European Assembly, and greater powers were given to that Assembly in many respects, that would further deprive this Parliament of some of those powers. So we have to watch that aspect of the matter most carefully.
If it were finally concluded—I trust we never reach that stage—that this Bill was going to go through without any peradventure or any possibility of checking it, if we had reached that appalling and calamitous situation, it might be argued that we should see whether we could have this safety net of a democratic verdict in Europe. But we have not reached that stage yet.
Therefore, although I understand why my hon. Friend put down his Amendment, I would ask him to consider withdrawing it and reintroducing it at a later stage if the Bill proceeds and if we do not secure all the other safeguards which we hope that the other Amendments will secure.
I hope that what we do tonight will be to vote on the two propositions: first, to vote against the unprecedented Ways and Means Resolution and, secondly, to vote for the Amendment which we have put forward officially from this side on the Money Resolution, which would secure the first step in ensuring that the House retains some of the powers which the Government wish, quite unnecessarily in our view, to throw away.
The Financial Secretary talked as though the powers of taxation involved would not be considerable. He did not conceal the fact that we are surrendering some powers of taxation in these two categories—under Clause 2(1) the self-executing powers or the regulations, and also some powers with some parliamentary control remaining, although not as effective a control as the full legislative process. What we should be considering is whether that is really necessary, even from the point of view of entering the Community.
Many safeguards can be achieved. I do not think it. is an especially good one, but there is the one which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster tried to introduce on Second Reading—the ad hoc committee to examine Statutory Instruments and the processes by which we can consider what are the proposals made from the Commission to the Council and how this Parliament may be able to examine them in between.
I understand where the Minister proposes to insert his committee, but of course it will have no powers. It will merely make recommendations to the House as to how we will be able to comment. The right to comment was what the Financial Secretary called it. British parliamentary history has not been centred around this clarion call of the "right to comment". Even the parish councils, under the proposed local government reform, are complaining because they have only the right to comment. The right to comment is all that the ad hoc body would be able to recommend or the House to do.

Mr. Rippon: indicated dissent.

Mr. Foot: The right hon. and learned Gentleman keeps shaking his head about it. The point of the operation is that he wants some parliamentary surveillance, some proposition that he can present to Parliament to say that these proposals which the Council of Ministers is to consider can be looked at by the House of Commons. But again I say the right to look at it—that is not the foundation of the British Parliament.

Mr. Rippon: Does the right hon. Gentleman understand that even after the process of scrutiny, which I hope he would realise is worth while, there is always the right to vote?

Mr. Foot: A right to vote? It depends on the proposal. There will not be a right to vote on proposals going from the Commission to the Council. There will be a right to vote having no effect, that is a right to vote as a comment on what they think is the proposal being made by the Government to the Council of Ministers. The vote would not be saying, "Here, you cannot push through that piece of taxation. You cannot go forward with that imposition on the people of this country". The vote would

say, "We do not like what the Council of Ministers is proposing to do, but if it does it we cannot stop it.
All these matters we will put in proper regulations and in proper amendments and we will have them debated and see how that can be done. But I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not, like some of his hon. Friends come and tell me—which is another argument which really contradicts what he says in his next breath—"We have given away so many of these powers already that we should not worry about giving away several more. We have so much trouble with Statutory Instruments as it is that it does not matter if we have a whole host more".
That is a curious argument. It is like saying that because we have an occasional hangover we might as well all become confirmed alcoholics. That is an argument which would have special appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. He ought to understand the distinction very well.
That is the kind of argument we have had from hon. Gentlemen opposite. We have had certainly, from back benchers speaking earlier, the argument that we have given away so many powers of control over various forms of taxation and various forms of international arrangement that we should not be too alarmed if we give away several more. We are alarmed because we believe the more we have seen the powers of the Executive increase the more we have seen the resort to Statutory Instruments on a scale which was never conceived to be right or desirable way back, some 10 or 15 years ago. The more we have seen that the more necessary it is that we should strengthen and sustain all the protections and shields which we have in this country and in this Parliament against the abuse of the rights of the people.
I must say I thought the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary fortified this case greatly by his remarks about value-added tax, even before we have had the proposal for a V.A.T. presented to the House—we have had a Green Paper, a general document, but nothing like the details—that this is a new form of tax which is to be introduced into this country. I think all my hon. Friends at the last election made their opposition clear. We sometimes talk of what people said at the last election but on V.A.T. there is no doubt about it whatever. All


of us said we were opposed to this value-added tax and that we did not like the principle of it.
I understand why many of my hon. Friends think that. It is because it is in most respects a regressive tax. One might ask casually, in passing, how is it that such a regressive tax comes from what is supposed to be such a progressive institution? We are proposing in this Session to introduce an entirely new form of taxation, of a kind bitterly detested by this side of the House, a new form of direct taxation; and here in this Money Resolution, we are asked to give sanction to it. We are giving some approval to it in general form because the hon. Gentleman drew a sharp distinction in his speech between the Ways and Means Resolution which did not refer to value-added tax and the Money Resolution, which does.
The hon. Gentleman used this argument for saying that all the other matters that are dealt with by the Money Resolution should not be subject to proper votes in Parliament and to the full panoply of scrutiny, investigation and votes, which is the normal procedure. In other words, he says that the argument which he uses for saying that we should put these matters in the same category as judges' salaries and the Civil List, which are not subject to such parliamentary control, should apply also to value-added tax because, he says, there must be a flow of money from this country.
Let us get it straight what is happening to the money. It is going from this country to the coffers of Europe. At the beginning of the debate my right hon. Friend said how extensive those sums were. They are not reckoned in a few pounds, shillings and pence; they are reckoned in hundreds of millions of pounds. Value-added tax will be a big sum, but the hon. Gentleman says that we must not interfere with the flow of the money from this country to Europe because it would not be convenient for the people in Europe, or it would not be convenient for the Treasury—

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I have not interrupted the hon. Gentleman because I know he has a lot to say, but I did not use the word "convenient". What I said was that it would not be consistent with the obligations which the country

undertook when my right hon and learned Friend signed the Treaty of Accession on 22nd January.

Mr. Foot: I apologise at once to the hon. Gentleman if what I said was misleading. For one thing, he has made it very much worse. Apparently the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made an undertaking with the Community that we should apply the process of the Consolidated Fund arrangement for the value-added tax flow into Europe without the Government coming to the House of Commons and saying that the House of Commons was to be deprived of its rights of Votes on Account or straight votes on V.A.T. He should have listened to his hon. Friend, who clearly stated that it would not be consistent with providing the money in the way that had been agreed if we interfered with the flow. We have every right to interfere with the flow and the House of Commons has the right to choose which way it will vote the money.
I say to my hon. Friends on this side of the House who are pro-European—and I am as pro-European as they are—that—this is a question of how the House of Commons will contribute the money. The money can be contributed in at least two ways, either in the way the Government have laid down in the Money Resolution or in the way which is laid down in our Amendment. The House of Commons is still free to make that choice.
If we choose our Amendment, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will have to go back to Brussels to renegotiate, and he will have to do that time and time again during the Committee stage. If he does not have to do that we are confronted with a fait accompli, with a situation in which we cannot make any substantial Amendments. Of course we know that that cannot be the situation because it would expose the Solicitor-General as a man who had misled the House in the discussion on the Treaty of Accession and, even more serious, it would expose the Financial Secretary who opened the debate today.
The House is perfectly free to vote for our Amendment. It will mean that we shall have insisted on one protection for this House's surveillance of the money that is voted, one protection which the


Government have given away, which they have no right to give away and which we as a House of Commons are now recovering. To recover it fully, we shall have to effect various other Amendments during our proceedings.
What we have sought to do in this debate is to make sure that the Ways and Means Resolution and the Money Resolution will not go through in a way which would deprive the House of Commons of its rights. This is simply the beginning of the struggle. We are not prepared to see the Bill go through on the basis of accepting what the occupants of the Treasury Bench have to say on these matters. All too soon in our discussions they have shown how little regard they have for the protections of this House. All too soon in our debates they have shown that they have not even provided the kind of protections which were freely available to them. All too soon in our debates they have shown that they have not even written into the Bill what is written into Acts of Parliament in some of the other countries of the Six.
Therefore, we are inspired all the more to promise the Government, but, even more importantly than the Government, the country, that we shall expose the real nature of the Bill, expose what are the rights which are being taken away from our people if we allow such a Bill to go through. We will do it all the more because we know that this Government have never had the courage to put this issue to the people, and we are determined that it is the people of this country who shall eventually decide this issue.

9.36 p.m.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) has closed on a classic and important note, and I would not for one moment quarrel with him when he says, as has been said many times in this series of debates, and will be said again, that this is an important debate. I would quarrel with him in suggesting that the people of this country, confronted with the realities of the questions we are now considering by all three major political parties for a decade, must be regarded as wholly in ignorance of what we are about. It is simply because of the importance of the subject that our entire approach as a Parliament, as a

House of Commons, as a democracy, has itself been without precedent.
The subject has been on the agenda of the nation for a decade. It was brought back firmly on to the agenda of the nation five years ago. It has been debated in this House I should say on 17 or 18 full days up to this time, and it has been the subject of a succession of White Papers and statements from successive Governments.

Mr. Russell Kerr: The facts have been known only for a year.

The Solicitor-General: I come to that point immediately. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) joined with the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) and others in saying it was not available to this Government at this point in time to say that these matters ought to have been understood. I can understand, of course, hon. Members on both sides of the House advancing that argument about the terms which have been negotiated. I can understand if they like to advance the argument about the shape of the Bill. But I cannot understand the argument advanced in this form, that we are disentitled from saying that to a large extent this matter ought to be understood, when in matters which are being argued and have been argued for a number of years it is at the heart of our debate.
Of course it is open to hon. Members, particularly the minority who have always opposed any application to join the Communities, to say, "This is something we will not buy at any price"; but to those who have entered the bidding, who supported the initial approach and throughout, and on more than one occasion, have said, "This is something which, if we get the terms right, we would like to buy on behalf of the British people", it is not entirely open, if they are to maintain intellectual consistency, to say "None of these matters has been so far understood". This is an important point one is entitled to make and it has been running right throughout these debates.
My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury outlined, as indeed was outlined last week, the extent to which it simply cannot be contended that


the idea of taxation flowing to the Communities—to pick up a phrase which has been used—is a novel idea. It has been a part of the Community system from the initial signature of the Coal and Steel Treaty, from April, 1951, that the levies on coal and steel have themselves been part of the "own resources" of the Community organisation. Article 201 of the European Economic Community Treaty made it plain that in due course the Community would have its "own resources", in particular revenues accruing from the common customs tariff when it was introduced, and it was visualised that those resources should replace the member State contributions.
I cannot easily believe that these central concepts have wholly escaped the notice of hon. Members on either side of the House who seem to suggest that they have. From 1962 onwards it was laid down that the Market agricultural levies should belong to the Communities and we know the extent to which, from the agreement of principle in November. 1969, through to the repetition by right hon. Gentlemen opposite in February, 1970, and thereafter, the change to own resources "financing was part of the arrangement in respect of which the Labour Government were renewing the application. I do not wish to scrutinise texts with the right hon. and hon. Members opposite but the matter is beyond doubt and I simply cannot begin to understand how the right hon. Member for Stepney, along with others, can here declare his resolute opposition, as he put it, to the abominable prospect—

Mr. Stanley Orme: Get back to the point.

The Solicitor-General: I am quoting directly from what the right hon. Member for Stepney said in order to answer the point. I cannot begin to understand how the right hon. Member for Stepney, having subscribed to what was published at that time and thereafter, can now declare his resolute opposition to what he describes as the abominable prospect of this change in taxing arrangements. I comment that he never answered the question put by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury about the respect in which the essentials of the arrangements we are now considering are different from those that were considered

at the time of the February, 1970, White Paper.

Mr. Shore: I think the essence of the difference is this. In 1967, as in earlier years in the Community until after the agreement of April, 1970, right up to that point, nothing was firm or settled in the European Community; all was a matter of transitional arrangements or, as in the case of the customs duties referred to in Article 201, dependent upon the unanimous agreement of the member countries, which had not been asked for or obtained.

The Solicitor-General: It simply will not begin to wash. The right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) told the House on 2nd February, 1970, that the arrangement provisionally agreed presented no obstacle to a continued approach to the Communities. The right hon. Gentleman has left it singularly late to try to answer the question which was put to him. Came the decision of 21st and 22nd April, 1970, and following on that, which was precisely foreshadowed in the often cited paragraphs of the February, 1970, White Paper, the right hon. Gentleman's Government, the Government of which he was a member, indicated its intention to renew the application. It is on that foundation, in respect of that Community organised as it then was, that these negotiations have proceeded.

Mr. Shore: All that happened was that the Government agreed to negotiate, as did the present Government, but not with any disposition to accept any particular arrangement which had not been negotiated or considered by the Labour Government.

The Solicitor-General: Of course not, but the then Government agreed to negotiate—and the right hon. Gentleman knows this perfectly well—in respect of the institutions established by the 1967 Treaty and, indeed, by the agreement of 1970. That was the matter in respect of which the Labour Government made their bid, and there is no room for argument about the essential nature of it.

Mr. English: Mr. English rose—

The Solicitor-General: No, not now. I do not underrate the importance of many questions raised on particular points by right hon. and hon. Members


on both sides of the House. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) referred to one of the Commission regulations in respect of the fixing of levies on meat. It is right to say that regulations and directives emitting from the Commission are made only in the context of previous policy decisions by the Council of Ministers. For example, the Council of Ministers fixes the target price or fixed price in respect of the commodities to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. All that the Commission is doing is issuing regulations or directives by determining the level of levy to achieve a price in respect of which negotiations have been taking place in the Council of Ministers.

Mr. Jay: But the Solicitor-General will not deny that the Commission on its own has the power to increase the rate of levy—that is to say, to impose additional taxation without any reference to the Council of Ministers, let alone to this House.

The Solicitor-General: It does so in pursuit of policy agreements already arrived at by the Council of Ministers and it implements those in the same way as many agencies implement international agreements in this country and elsewhere by reference to foundations already agreed. It does not go to the heart of the matter. There are better points for the hon. Gentleman to make than that.

Mr. Jay: Mr. Jay rose—

The Solicitor-General: I am sorry, I cannot give way again.
I should like to turn to a different point raised by a number of hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton). It would be wrong for anybody to assume that the levy of value-added tax on this country would not be subject to the full panoply of parliamentary discussion and debate. There is no question of Parliament imposing V.A.T. by these Ways and Means Resolution proposals, because that will he put forward in the Finance Bill. The E.E.C. countries are thereby committed only to the introduction of a value-added tax. They have not agreed on the harmonisation of rates and the coverage. That will be done only by means of directives

in respect of which unanimity will be required. It means that in coming to the House of Commons Her Majesty's Government would have to take the steps by their own legislation if any changes were needed to enable V.A.T. to be introduced, or the shape of it to be varied to comply with a Community directive thereafter.

Mr. Michael Foot: Mr. Michael Foot rose—

The Solicitor-General: No; I have very little time left and I want to try to deal with other points.
I come to the more central point which relates to the extent and nature of the changes effected in parliamentary control. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury explained the three different natures of the funds with which we are here dealing. They are first put all in one package—those in the nature of loans, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton recognised were appropriate for handling through the Consolidated Fund or National Loans Fund. That is the first category. The second category is described as "own resources "—namely, at this stage the customs duties and agricultural levies—and at a later stage, when and if that point arrives, the percentage of V.A.T. when that has been harmonised.
The case for "own resources" contributions going on the Consolidated Fund procedure is very strong. It is of the essence of the organisation that this is money for the Communities to handle on behalf of the Communities in accordance with previously taken decisions. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley) explained that this had always been foreshadowed. He explained that it emphasises the important aspect of the character of the Communities as something more than customs union which underpins their cohesion and minimises the risk of defaults which other international organisations face.
The final element is that which is necessary until any change is made in respect of V.A.T., namely, the member States' contribution. I readily acknowledge, as did the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, the wisdom of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury; but I will not acknowledge that there was any inconsistency between what he said


and what I say. We have both said that the form of these Resolutions permits, and will permit hereafter, the widest possible debate about the legislative structure which gives effect to the intention of joining the Communities which is not restrictive on them in any way.
The right hon. Member for Battersea, North suggested that in discussing the reality and theory of parliamentary control, my hon. Friend was suggesting that the theory does not work exactly as described and therefore it is unimportant. The way in which he was presenting it was that the description of the theory does not in detail always equal the reality of practice. But neither he nor I, nor any member of the Government, would begin to quarrel with the proposition that it is important that the influence and control of this House should be maintained as effectively as it can be in the particular circumstances of what we are now engaged upon.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West said that the whole gamut of parliamentary control ranged from Questions, on the one hand, to the threat of withdrawal of support, on the other. In this context, as in any other, that is the ultimate reality. It is that range of sanctions which will ultimately be available in respect of parliamentary control.
It is possible—this is not the occasion—to visualise a rôle for the European Assembly. I do not wish to embark on that discussion now. It is more important at this point to consider the ways in which the influence of our Parliament and of this House should be brought to bear in this changed situation. My right hon. and learned Friend's ad hoc Committee is one of the instruments to consider this matter. The parliamentary Question, which will cover the entire range of Ministerial responsibility, will be another. The Expenditure Committee, to which a number of right hon. and hon. Members have referred, will also maintain a rôle in respect of these payments. These payments are part of public expenditure. In answer to my right hon. Friend who asked about the extent to which they were included in the five-year review, they are already included in last November's White Paper, Command 4829, as part of the forthcoming expenditure in the next four to five years.

The Expenditure Committee can consider them in that context in the same way as any other expenditure there set out.
The Expenditure Committee can consider the policy underlying the Estimates. It can examine Ministers as well as officials in respect of the policy and handling of the resources referred to there. It would be perfectly open for the Expenditure Committee to do that. After all, it does so already in relation to expenditure on aid to developing countries and contributions to international organisations. The Minister concerned remains responsible to Parliament for all the payments out of the Exchequer. The Minister responsible could be questioned about any action and the Committee could report in the perfectly ordinary way. The rôle of the Public Accounts Committee could also remain, because the Comptroller and Auditor General audits the Consolidated Fund accounts each year and issues a report on them. If he had occasion to issue a substantial report he would do so, and the P.A.C. would consider that in the normal way.
I have two final points: the nature of this debate and the context of the series of debates. We are not tonight saying, as has been suggested yet again, yea or nay to Europe. Still less are we saying yea or nay to loss of parliamentary control. We are deciding tonight the question of yea or nay to a wide, unrestricted debate on the Clauses which form the substance of the Bill to which the House has already given a Second Reading. In that context we can consider all the suggestions from both sides about how the House should handle the matter.
It is worth reminding ourselves, in the context of the important points made by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, exactly what parliamentary sovereignty and the nature of our procedures are meant to be about. They are meant to represent a means of expressing the control through Parliament, on behalf of the people, of the Executive and of the way in which decisions by Parliament and the Executive affect the conditions of life of our people. I find it difficult always to accept without some demur complaints from the Opposition, even from the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, about extensions of the power of the Executive, because they have not been conspicuously concerned to prevent them in the past.
The essential point about parliamentary control is that if there is one constant thing about the way in which the House has conducted its business it is its infinite capacity for change. Over the centuries, through a series of different situations, as the rôle of Parliament in relation to the Crown has altered, as the colonies turned into the Commonwealth, as the Commonwealth went through the period symbolised by the Ottawa Agreement, all these changes were accompanied by real and substantial changes in the rôle of the House in fulfilling its tradition and functions. Sometimes the forms have remained the same and sometimes they have changed. But it is the substance which the House should be determined to preserve, and the Government believe that the substance of parliamentary control in this new situa

tion could be preserved. In the context of our accession to the European Community it should be our purpose to see that it can be preserved. It is one on which the Government is resolved and one on which I invite the House to support the Government in their approach to the matter tonight.

Mr. English: Before the hon. and learned Gentleman sits down, will he make plain whether he is accepting or rejecting the Amendment to which he was technically speaking?

The Solicitor-General: I invite the House to reject the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Main Question put:

The House divided: Ayes 306, Noes 276.

Division No. 62.]
AYES
[9.58 p.m.


Adley, Robert
Clegg, Walter
Gorst, John


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Cockeram, Eric
Gower, Raymond


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Cooke, Robert
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Coombs, Derek
Gray, Hamish


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Cooper, A. E.
Green, Alan


Astor, John
Cordle, John
Grieve, Percy


Atkins, Humphrey
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)


Awdry, Daniel
Cormack, Patrick
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Costain, A. P.
Grylls, Michael


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Critchley, Julian
Gummer, Selwyn


Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord
Crouch, David
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)


Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Crowder, F. P.
Hall, John (Wycombe)


Batsford, Brian
Curran, Charles
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Dalkeith, Earl of
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)


Bell, Ronald
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Hannam, John (Exeter)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
d' Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Harrison, Brian (Maldon)


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
d' Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)


Benyon, W.
Dean, Paul
Haselhurst, Alan


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.
Hastings, Stephen


Biggs-Davison, John
Digby, Simon Wingfield
Havers, Michael


Blaker, Peter
Dixon, Piers
Hawkins, Paul


Boardman, Tom (Leicetter, S.W.)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hay, John


Boscawen, Robert
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Hayhoe, Barney


Bossom, Sir Clive
Drayson, G. B.
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward


Bowden, Andrew
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Heseltine, Michael


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Dykes, Hugh
Hicks, Robert


Braine Sir Bernard
Eden, Sir John
Higgins, Terence L.


Bray, Ronald
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hiley, Joseph


Brewis, John
Elliott, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Elliott, R. W. (Nc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Emery, Peter
Holland, Philip


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Holt, Miss Mary


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Fidler, Michael
Hordern, Peter


Bryan, Paul
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Hornby, Richard


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia


Buck, Antony
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)


Burden, F. A.
Fookes, Miss Janet
Howell, David (Guildford)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Fortescue, Tim
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Foster, Sir John
Hunt, John


Carlisle, Mark
Fowler, Norman
Iremonger, T. L.



Fox, Marcus
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Fry, Peter
James, David


Cary, Sir Robert
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Channon, Paul
Gardner, Edward
Jessel, Toby


Chapman, Sydney
Gibson-Watt, David
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk. C.)
Johnston, Russell (Inverness)


Chichester-Clark, R.
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Churchill, W. S.
Glyn, Dr. Alan
Jopling, Michael


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Goodhart, Philip
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Goodhew, Victor
Kaberry, Sir Donald




Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine
Neave, Airey
Speed, Keith


Kershaw, Anthony
Nicholls Sir Harmar
Spence, John


Kimball, Marcus
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Sproat, Iain


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Normanton, Tom
Stainton, Keith


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Nott, John
Stanbrook, Ivor


Kinsey, J. R.
Onslow, Cranley
Steel, David


Kirk, Peter
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)


Kitson, Timothy
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Knight, Mrs. Jill
Osborn, John
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Knox, David
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Stokes, John


Lambton, Lord
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Lane, David
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Tapsell, Peter


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Pardoe, John
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Parkinson, Cecil
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Le Marchant, Spencer
Percival, Ian
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Tebbit, Norman


Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut 'nC' dfield)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Temple, John M.


Longden, Sir Gilbert
Pink, R. Bonner
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Loveridge, John
Pounder, Rafton
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Luce, R. N.
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


McAdden, Sir Stephen
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


MacArthur, Ian
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy


McCrindle, R. A.
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Tilney, John


McLaren, Martin
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Raison, Timothy
Trew, Peter


McMaster, Stanley
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Tugendhat, Christopher


Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
van Straubenzee, W. R.


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Redmond, Robert
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Maddan, Martin
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Waddington, David


Madel, David
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest
Ronton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Mather, Carol
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Wall, Patrick


Maude, Angus
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Walters, Dennis


Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Ridsdale, Julian
Ward, Dame Irene


Mawby, Ray
Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Warren, Kenneth


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Wiggin, Jerry


Miscampbell, Norman
Rost, Peter
Wilkinson, John


Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Royle, Anthony
Winterton, Nicholas


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Money, Ernie
Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Monks, Mrs. Connie
Scott, Nicholas
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Monro, Hector
Scott-Hopkins, James
Woodnutt, Mark


Montgomery, Fergus
Sharples, Richard
Worsley, Marcus


More, Jasper
Shaw, Michael (Sc'm'gh &amp; Whitby)
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Younger, Hn. George


Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Simeons, Charles



Morrison, Charles
Sinclair, Sir George
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Mudd, David
Skeet, T. H. H.
Mr. Reginald Eyre and


Murton, Oscar
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)
Mr. Bernard Weatherill.


Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Soref, Harold





NOES


Abse, Leo
Buchan, Norman
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Davies, Ifor (Gower)


Allen, Scholefield
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)


Ashley, Jack
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)


Ashton, Joe
Cant, R. B.
Deakins, Eric


Atkinson, Norman
Carmichael, Neil
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Delargy, H. J.


Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund


Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Dempsey, James


Baxter, William
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Doig, Peter


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Dormand, J. D.


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Cohen, Stanley
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)


Bidwell, Sydney
Coleman, Donald
Douglas-Mann, Bruce


Bishop, E. S.
Concannon, J. D.
Driberg, Tom


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Conlan, Bernard
Duffy, A. E. P.


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Dunn, James A.


Body, Richard
Crawshaw, Richard
Eadie, Alex


Booth, Albert
Cronin, John
Edelman, Maurice


Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)


Bradley, Tom
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Edwards, William (Merioneth)


Broughton, Sir Alfred
Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)
Ellis, Tom


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.W.)
Dalyell, Tam
English, Michael


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George
Evans, Fred


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Davidson, Arthur
Ewing, Henry




Faulds, Andrew




Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Lestor, Miss Joan
Price, William (Rugby)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Probert, Arthur


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Rankin, John


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lipton, Marcus
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Foley, Maurice
Lomas, Kenneth
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Foot, Michael
Loughlin, Charles
Richard, Ivor


Ford, Ben
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Forrester, John
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
McBride, Neil
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Freeson, Reginald
McCann, John
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)


Galpern, Sir Myer
McCartney, Hugh
Roper, John


Garrett, W. E.
McElhone, Frank
Rose, Paul B.


Gilbert, Dr. John
McGuire, Michael
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)
Mackenzie, Gregor
Sandelson, Neville


Golding, John
Mackie, John
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Mackintosh, John P.
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Gourlay, Harry
Maclennan, Robert
Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'ctle-u-Tyne)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton.N.E.)


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Sillars, James


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Marks, Kenneth
Silverman, Julius


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Marquand, David
Skinner, Dennis


Hamling, William
Marsden, F.
Small, William


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Marshall, Dr. Edmund
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Hardy, Peter
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Spearing, Nigel


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Meacher, Michael
Spriggs, Leslie


Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Stallard, A. W.


Hattersley, Roy
Mendelson, John
Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)


Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Mikardo, Ian
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Heffer, Eric S.
Millan, Bruce
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Hilton, W. S.
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John


Hooson, Emlyn
Milne, Edward
Strang, Gavin


Horam, John
Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, lichen)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Molloy, William
Swain, Thomas


Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Taverne, Dick


Huckfield, Leslie
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Moyle, Roland
Tinn, James


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Tomney, Frank


Hunter, Adam
Murray, Ronald King
Torney, Tom


Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)
Oakes, Gordon
Tuck, Raphael


Janner, Greville
Ogden, Eric
Urwin, T. W.


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
O' Halloran, Michael
Varley, Eric G.


Jeger, Mrs. Lena
O'Malley, Brian
Wainwright, Edwin


Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Oram, Bert
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Orbach, Maurice
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Orme, Stanley
Wallace, George


John, Brynmor
Oswald, Thomas
Watkins, David


Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Weitzman, David


Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Padley, Walter
Wellbeloved, James


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Paget, R. T.
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Whitehead, Phillip


Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)
Palmer, Arthur
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Parker, John (Dagenham)
Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)


Judd, Frank
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Kaufman, Gerald
Pavitt, Laurie



Kelley, Richard
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Kerr, Russell
Pendry, Tom
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Kinnock, Neil
Pentland, Norman
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Lambie, David

Woof, Robert


Lamond, James
Perry, Ernest G.



Latham, Arthur
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Leadbitter, Ted
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Prescott, John
Mr. Joseph Harper.


Leonard, Dick
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved,

That any Act of the present Session to make provision in connection with the enlargement of the European Communities to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar, may include provision—


(a) for giving effect to any charge to taxation of those Communities, and for the imposition and alteration of customs duties by order of the Treasury;
(b) for the payment into the Consolidated Fund or National Loans Fund of sums received by any Minister of the Crown or government department.

Orders of the Day — EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES [MONEY]

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made, and Question proposed.

That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision in connection with the enlargement of the European Communities to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the charge on the Consolidated Fund or National Loans Fund of such sums as may be specified in the Act, being sums required to meet payments to any of the Communities or to Member States or to the

European Investment Bank (or to redeem notes or obligations issued or created in respect of obligations to make such payments); and

(b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenses not so charged of any Minister of the Crown or government department, being expenses incurred under or by virtue of the Act or the treaties therein referred to.—[Mr. Patrick Jenkin.]

Amendment proposed, to leave out paragraph (a).—[Mr. Michael Foot.]

Amendment negatived.

Main Question put:—

The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 275.

Division No. 63.]
AYES
[10.13 p.m.


Adley, Robert
Critchley, Julian
Harrison, Brian (Maldon)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Crouch, David
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Crowder, F. P.
Haselhurst, Alan


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Curran, Charles
Hastings, Stephen


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Dalkeith, Earl of
Havers, Michael


Astor, John
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Hawkins, Paul


Atkins, Humphrey
d' Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Hay, John


Awdry, Daniel
d' Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Hayhoe, Barney


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Dean, Paul
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.
Heseltine, Michael


Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord
Digby, Simon Wingfield
Hicks, Robert


Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Dixon, Piers
Higgins, Terence L.


Batsford, Brian
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hiley, Joseph


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)


Bell, Ronald
Drayson, G. B.
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Holland, Philip


Bennett, Or. Reginald (Gosport)
Dykes, Hugh
Holt, Miss Mary


Benyon, W.
Eden, Sir John
Hordern, Peter


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hornby, Richard


Biggs-Davison, John
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia


Blaker, Peter
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne N.)
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)
Emery, Peter
Howell, David (Guildford)


Boscawen, Robert
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Bowden, Andrew
Fidler, Michael
Hunt, John


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt Hon. John
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Iremonger, T. L.


Braine, Sir Bernard
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)


Bray, Ronald
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
James, David


Brewis, John
Fookes, Miss Janet
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Fortescue, Tim
Jessel, Toby


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Foster, Sir John
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Fowler, Norman
Johnston, Russell (Inverness)


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Fox, Marcus
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Bryan, Paul
Fry, Peter
Jopling, Michael


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith


Buck, Antony
Gardner, Edward
Kaberry, Sir Donald


Burden, F. A.
Gibson-Watt, David
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Kershaw, Anthony


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Kimball, Marcus


Carlisle, Mark
Glyn, Dr. Alan
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Goodhart, Philip
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Cary, Sir Robert
Goodhew, Victor
Kinsey, J. R.


Channon, Paul
Gorst, John
Kirk, Peter


Chapman, Sydney
Gower, Raymond
Kitson, Timothy


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Chichester-Clark, R.
Gray, Hamish
Knox, David


Churchill, W. S.
Green, Alan
Lambton, Lord


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Grieve, Percy
Lane, David


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Clegg, Walter
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry


Cockeram, Eric
Grylls, Michael
Le Marchant, Spencer


Cooke, Robert
Gummer, Selwyn
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Coombs, Derek
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'n C' dfield)


Cooper, A. E.
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Longden, Sir Gilbert


Cordle, John
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Loveridge, John


Corfield, Rt Hn. Frederick
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Luce, R. N.


Cormack, Patrick
Hannam, John (Exeter)
McAdden, Sir Stephen


Costain, A. P.






MacArthur, Ian
Parkinson, Cecil
Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)


McCrindle, R. A.
Percival, Ian
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


McLaren, Martin
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Stokes, John


McMaster, Stanley
Pink, R. Bonner
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham)
Pounder, Rafton
Tapsell, Peter


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Maddan, Martin
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Madel, David
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Tebbit, Norman


Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest
Ouennell, Miss J. M.
Temple, John M.


Mather, Carol
Ralson, Timothy
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Maude, Angus
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Mawby, Ray
Redmond, Robert
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Tilney, John


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Trew, Peter


Miscampbell, Norman
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Tugendhat, Christopher


Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Ridsdale, Julian
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Money, Ernie
Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Vickers, Dame Joan


Monks, Mrs. Connie
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Waddington, David


Monro, Hector
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Montgomery, Fergus
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


More, Jasper
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Wall, Patrick


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Rost, Peter
Walters, Dennis


Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Royle, Anthony
Ward, Dame Irene


Morrison, Charles
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Warren, Kenneth


Mudd, David
Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Murton, Oscar
Scott, Nicholas
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Scott-Hopkins, James
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Neave, Airey
Sharples, Richard
Wiggin, Jerry


Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh, &amp; Whitby)
Wilkinson, John


Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Winterton, Nicholas


Normanton, Tom
Simeons, Charles
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Nott, John
Sinclair, Sir George
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Onslow, Cranley
Skeet, T. H. H.
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)
Woodnutt, Mark


Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Soref, Harold
Worsley, Marcus


Osborn, John
Speed, Keith
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Spence, John
Younger, Hn. George


Page, Graham (Crosby)
Sproat, Iain



Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Stainton, Keith
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Pardoe, John
Stanbrook, Ivor
Mr. Reginald Eyre and



Steel, David
Mr. Bernard Weatherill,




NOES


Abse, Leo
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Edelman, Maurice


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)


Allen, Scholefield
Cohen, Stanley
Edwards, William (Merioneth)


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Coleman, Donald
Ellis, Tom


Ashley, Jack
Concannon, J. D.
English, Michael


Ashton, Joe
Conlan, Bernard
Evans, Fred


Atkinson, Norman
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Ewing, Henry


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Crawshaw, Richard
Faulds, Andrew


Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Cronin, John
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.


Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)


Baxter, William
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Dalyell, Tam
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)


Bidwell, Sydney
Darling, Rt. Hn. George
Foley, Maurice


Bishop, E. S.
Davidson, Arthur
Foot, Michael


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Ford, Ben


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Forrester, John


Booth, Albert
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Fraser, John (Norwood)


Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)
Freeson, Reginald


Bradley, Tom
Deakins, Eric
Galpern, Sir Myer


Broughton, Sir Alfred
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey
Garrett, W. E.


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Delargy, H. J.
Gilbert, Dr. John


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Dempsey, James
Golding, John


Buchan, Norman
Doig, Peter
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Dormand, J. D.
Gourlay, Harry


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Grant, George (Morpeth)


Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Driberg, Tom
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)


Cant, R. B.
Duffy, A. E. P.
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)


Carmichael, Neil
Dunn, James A.
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Dunnett, Jack
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Eadie, Alex
Hamling, William


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara






Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Mackie, John
Richard, Ivor


Hardy, Peter
Mackintosh, John P.
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Harrison, Waller (Wakefield)
Maclennan, Robert
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Hattersley, Roy
McNamara, J. Kevin
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)


Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Roper, John


Heffer, Eric S.
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Rose, Paul B.


Hilton, W. S.
Marks, Kenneth
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Hooson, Emlyn
Marquand, David
Sandelson, Neville


Horam, John
Marsden, F.
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Marshall, Dr. Edmund
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)


Huckfield, Leslie
Meacher, Michael
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)


Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Mendelson, John
Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Mikardo, Ian
Sillars, James


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Millan, Bruce
Silverman, Julius


Hunter, Adam
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Skinner, Dennis


Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)
Milne, Edward
Small, William


Janner, Greville
Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Molloy, William
Spearing, Nigel


Jeger, Mrs. Lena
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Spriggs, Leslie


Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Stallard, A. W.


Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)


Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


John, Brynmor
Moyle, Roland
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John


Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Murray, Ronald King
Strang, Gavin


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Oakes, Gordon
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Ogden, Eric
Swain, Thomas


Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)
O'Halloran, Michael
Taverne, Dick


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
O'Malley, Brian
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff. W.)


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Oram, Bert
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Judd, Frank
Orbach, Maurice
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Kaufman, Gerald
Orme, Stanley
Tinn, James


Kelley, Richard
Oswald, Thomas
Tomney, Frank


Kerr, Russell
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Torney, Tom


Kinnock, Neil
Padley, Walter
Tuck, Raphael


Lambie, David
Paget, R. T.
Urwin, T. W.


Lamond, James
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Varley, Eric G.


Latham, Arthur
Palmer, Arthur
Wainwright, Edwin


Leadbitter, Ted
Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Parker, John (Dagenham)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Leonard, Dick
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Wallace, George


Lestor, Miss Joan
Pavitt, Laurie
Watkins, David


Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Weitzman, David


Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Pendry, Tom
Wellbeloved, James


Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Pentland, Norman
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Lipton, Marcus
Perry, Ernest G.
Whitehead, Phillip


Lomas, Kenneth
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Loughlin, Charles
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Preacott, John
Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)


Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


McBride, Neil
Price, William (Rugby)
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


McCann, John
Probert, Arthur
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)



Rankin, John
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


McCartney, Hugh

Woof, Robert


McElhone, Frank
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


McGuire, Michael
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


Mackenzie, Gregor
Rhodes, Geoffrey
Mr. Joseph Harper.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved,

That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision in connection with the enlargement of the European Communities to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the charge on the Consolidated Fund or National Loans Fund of such sums as may be specified in the Act, being sums

required to meet payments to any of the Communities or to Member States or to the European Investment Bank (or to redeem notes or obligations issued or created in respect of obligations to make such payments); and
(b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenses not so charged of any Minister of the Crown or government department, being expenses incurred under or by virtue of the Act or the treaties therein referred to.

ADJOURNMENT

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fortescue.]

Orders of the Day — UNEMPLOYMENT (MANCHESTER)

10.27 p.m.

Mr. Gerald Kaufman: I raise tonight the question of unemployment in the Manchester travel-to-work area. I am grateful for the opportunity of raising it and I would say to the Minister who is to reply to the debate that unless urgent action is taken on this problem Manchester is in danger of becoming a disaster area. I say this because, although there is serious unemployment in many parts of the country, Manchester has special problems which require special policies to deal with them.
In Great Britain since the General Election of June, 1970, unemployment has risen by 79 per cent. That is grave enough, but in the Manchester travel-to-work area unemployment during this period has gone up by more than 100 per cent.; it has more than doubled. The total number of unemployed has risen from 15,017 to 30,135. The number of wholly unemployed has risen from 14.884 to 29,894. The breadwinners who are out of work, men aged over 18 are up from 13,212 to 26,358. Manchester's position is deteriorating, not only in itself but in relation to the rest of the country.
In June, 1970, Manchester's unemployment was below the national average. Even a year ago, in January 1971, it was below the national average. Now, however, for the first time since the 1930s, Manchester's unemployment at 4·4 per cent. is above the national average. What is more, employment opportunities are vanishing fast, there are redundancies and especially closures. In the last few months the closure of Irlam has been announced and there have been re-redundancies at I.C.L. at West Gorton in my constituency and at the Nuclear Power Group in Knutsford, which provides employment opportunities in Manchester generally. At Churchill Machine Tools, Altrincham, employing 1,100, a closure has been announced with a reprieve of six months, but there is no

guarantee that after six months those 1,100 jobs will be saved. Of 515 jobs at the Avon Rubber Company at Ardwick, 70 have gone and the other 445 are to go at the end of the month through closure.
I note with satisfaction the presence of hon. Friends of mine from Manchester constituencies, but I am appalled at the absence of any hon. Member from a Manchester constituency on the Government side when we are debating this extremely serious situation. Not one Tory Manchester Member cares enough about the 30,000 unemployed in Manchester even to attend.

Mr. Peter Rees: Who wants to listen to the hon. Member?

Mr. Kaufman: The hon. and learned Member for Dover (Mr. Peter Rees) can rustle up some of his hon. Friends from Manchester constituencies if he likes to do so.

Mr. Rees: My hon. Friends from Manchester constituencies know better than to listen to the hon. Member.

Mr. Kaufman: At Dawson Barfos in the constituency of Gorton there is a closure by which 250 more jobs will go. Since then there have been 150 redundancies at Ferranti's in Hollinwood and Wythenshawe, 250 at Groves Whitnall brewery, 116 at Edward Holmes and Company's electrical switchgear works and 93 redundancies at Francis Shaw rubber works. This is the tragic list in the Manchester area. The problem is even worse because vacancies to take up redundancies do not exist. In the period since June, 1970, the number of vacancies has more than halved. In June, 1970, there were five men chasing every job vacant in Manchester. That was bad enough, but a year ago there were eight men chasing every job and today there are 25 for every vacancy.
In the three highest categories of unemployment the situation in Manchester is appalling. The latest figures are for September, 1971. In the construction industry there are 16 unemployed for every job available. In the distributive trades there are seven unemployed for every job and in electrical engineering there are 18 unemployed for every job.
I wrote last month to the Secretary of State for Employment asking what


special measures he would take to deal with closure at the Avon Rubber works. He told me of the special measures being taken. This demonstrates the tragedy of the situation. He told me that his Department was making a special approach to 400 employers in the area and that to date this had resulted in 77 additional vacancies for men and 62 for women. This is a tragic situation. The new jobs situation is nowhere near keeping up with the number of redundancies. During the last 13 months there have been 13,130 redundancies in Manchester but the number of jobs in manufacturing industry resulting from industrial development certificates in that period was only 1,971. For every seven redundancies only one new job has been created.
This is a frightening problem for the City of Manchester, an industrial centre with a fine, historic reputation in the development of British industry. The men and women who live there are hardworking, with unrivalled skills. It is a terrible fact that industry there is in a state of decline and unless something is done my lion. Friends and I fear that the decline will be irreversible. The basic industries in the area are closing and hardly any, if any, new industry is coming in. The Minister may well say, as the Secretary of State has said repeatedly, that when the promised expansion comes everything will be all right.
I have had my doubts for some time about whether the expansion was coming. Even if we have the unparalleled boom of which the Prime Minister has spoken, there is little scope for expansion in the city and the area round it. There is no guarantee, as there is in some areas, that if and when the boom comes Manchester will be floating off its depression on that boom.
My hon. Friends representing Manchester constituencies and surrounding areas are present in some numbers this evening, unlike hon. Members opposite who represent the city and have not bothered to turn up. We are not simply complaining: we have specific proposals to make. We ask first that intermediate area status be given to the city and greater Manchester. We say this well knowing that the Minister may say that

some areas are worse off than we are. That may be so—some areas certainly are—but the North-East Lancashire intermediate area has a lower unemployment level than we have. We do not begrudge North-East Lancashire its intermediate area status but we say that if it has it, we want it too and we have the right to claim it. We want the benefits that intermediate area status brings, namely, the large house building grants available under the Housing Act.
I have repeatedly asked the Government to extend the benefits of that Act to Manchester but they have said that they cannot do so because we are not an assisted area. In view of our unemployment problems and our specific construction industry problems we should be given intermediate area status so that we can qualify for those benefits. I ask the Government to heed the demands made by the North West Industrial Development Association on behalf of Manchester and the surrounding area—demands made to the Prime Minister who has not responded—that building grants should be made available to companies, irrespective of employment considerations, towards the cost of constructing new industrial premises and modernising old industrial premises in all parts of the region. There should be 100 per cent. grants to local authorities for the clearance of derelict industrial sites and buildings.
Those are specific requests. Above all we ask for an end to the ban announced last year on industrial development certificates for new projects, a ban imposed by the Minister when he sent out the guide saying that industrial development certificates in greater Manchester would not generally be granted for new projects, for entirely new lines of production or for substantial expansion which could be undertaken elsewhere. We ask for the end of that ban because we must have a transfusion of new lifeblood in Manchester.
I received a letter recently from a constituent who has been employed for 41 years at Churchill Machine Tools which is now under sentence of death. My constituent wrote:
I sincerely hope that you can bring some pressure to bear in order to dissuade this Government from its policy to denude the North-West of its own industry.


I hope that in his reply the Minister will give us not comforting bromides but a promise of definite and specific action to help Manchester in its dismaying plight. We look for a message of hope. We hope that we shall not be disappointed.

10.40 p.m.

Mr. Charles R. Morris: I think that the whole House is indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) for raising again the problem of escalating unemployment in the greater Manchester area. Rationalisation, redundancy, unemployment, call it what we will, is by no means something new for my constituents. We have witnessed unemployment in many differing forms. However, what is causing anxiety and alarm in the Manchester area now is the new form of redundancy and unemployment which is manifesting itself in the city.
We have seen virtually the decimation of the textile industry in the Failsworth area of my constituency. Only months ago we saw the loss of 600 jobs at the British Steel Corporation at Openshaw. We have seen the closure of Beyer Peacock, a great industrial combine, the closing of the Admiralty Gunnery Depot and the closing of the Bradford Colliery in my constituency. Unemployment in its many and varied forms has been inflicted on my constituents and on the residents of Manchester in general.
When the Under-Secretary of State replied to a similar debate last year I intervened towards the end and invited him to come and see the problem for himself. It is all very well to sit on the Government Front Bench looking upon unemployment as a statistical academic exercise, but unemployment for my constituents is a real, human problem. It affects so many of their domestic lives. I realise that the Under-Secretary's programme for visits to the regions is intense and pressurised, but I hope he will accept the invitation of my hon. Friends the Members for the Manchester constituencies of Ardwick, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris), Blackley (Mr. Rose) and Gorton (Mr. Marks) and myself to come and discuss the problem with our constituents in the city and see for himself

at first hand the human suffering which has arisen as a consequence.

10.42 p.m.

Mr. Kenneth Marks: The figures given by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) concerning the number of people who are affected by unemployment give us cause to reflect on a very serious situation.
I believe that there are three causes for the Government's failure to improve the situation. One is the lack of confidence of investors, management and workers. We have had too many optimistic speeches from the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in particular and their optimism has not been well-founded.
The City of Manchester is in the middle of a huge programme of clearance of old dwellings and the building of new houses. However, as the new houses go up, the factories are closing. One reason is that many factories are outdated. A great many firms operate in buildings that are not only old but are designed for a different purpose from that for which they are used.
Dawson Barfos mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Ardwick and which is to close in March with the loss of 250 jobs, is one of a group of factories in various parts of the country. The firm needs to reinvest in new machinery, but the building is not good enough for the job, so the work is going to more modern factories in the South. I am sure that this example could be repeated many times.
The local authorities in the area have put forward a sensible plan to extend the definition of derelict land to include industrial buildings and to make improvement grants available for industrial buildings as they are for houses. That plan was put to the Government five months ago. In view of the Government's failure to live up to their optimistic promises and forecasts, I urge them to accept that plan now.
I have one final point. There has been a rapid decline in the number of apprenticeships. Many of these are now taken up not by school leavers but by boys whose apprenticeships are interrupted by redundancy. I urge the Government to make more training available, to remind


firms that there will not be any 15-yearolds leaving school next year and to stockpile apprentices now.

Mr. Paul B. Rose: Before my hon. Friend sits down, may I ask him to consider the future of the aircraft industry in the Manchester area? Would he join me in asking the Minister for an undertaking about Hawker-Siddeley, which the Minister has not given in spite of being asked for it as much as three months ago?

Mr. Marks: Certainly, and most definitely in connection with the Hawker-Siddeley 748.

10.45 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant): I congratulate the hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) on his success in obtaining this debate. He has, however, been less than fair to my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Withington (Sir R. Cary) and Moss Side (Mr. Frank Taylor), with whom I frequently discuss the problems of Manchester and who, the hon. Member may rest assured, are just as concerned about the city's problems as he is. I was talking to my hon. Friend the Member for Withington earlier this afternoon and I understand perfectly why he cannot be here now.
This is by no means the first occasion when the unemployment problems of Manchester have been raised in the House in recent months, and I recognise the great concern of both the hon. Member for Ardwick and his colleagues as well as of those outside this House who are very rightly concerned with the level of unemployment in the Manchester travel-to-work area.
Let me assure hon. Members at once that the Government are fully alive to the problems of Manchester and there is no question of complacency on their part over the situation there. The present unemployment figures are unacceptably high, and we fully appreciate what these mean for those who are at present without jobs. But in facing the realities of the situation, and acknowledging the considerable impact which major closures and redundancies have had on the area in recent years, I do not share the despondency and gloom expressed by the hon. Member for Ardwick and his hon.

Friends. To begin with we have to accept that Manchester, in common with all other major industrial areas, has been undergoing structural change and rationalisation, consequent upon the need to meet the challenge of new technologies as well as to meet cost inflation.
I certainly do not seek to minimise the substantial number of redundancies that have taken place or may take place in the future, but the fact that most of the larger ones have been the subject of long notice or have been phased over a period of several months has at least lessened their impact. It has enabled many of the workers concerned to find other jobs in the extensive Manchester travel-to-work area, in which the full services of the Department of Employment are constantly available, especially in regard to major closures. I appreciate that natural wastage has played a part in reducing the number of redundancies and that the generous redundancy payments have also assisted to cushion their impact.
The Manchester district has shown a remarkable resilience in recent years. This fact is borne out by Manchester's unemployment levels. An analysis of wholly unemployed in the Manchester travel-to-work area as compared with those of Great Britain during the past 18 months shows that except for December and January the monthly percentage rates for Manchester have remained consistently below those for Great Britain. In December and January the wholly unemployed rate rose above the national rate by 0·1 per cent. and 0·2 per cent. respectively. As I have already stressed the present situation gives no grounds for complacency, but it shows that Manchester's unemployment has closely followed the national trend. The current wholly unemployed rate of 4·3 per cent. is, moreover, well below the corresponding rate for the North-West Region as a whole of 4·8 per cent.
We have heard tonight of the fears that recent job losses spell the decline of a great industrial and commercial centre, and that the Government's industrial development certificate policy seriously inhibits further industrial development. I cannot emphasise too strongly that these fears are groundless. Despite heavy job losses, Manchester has a wide


and strongly based variety of manufacturing industries as well as a large services sector. In our natural anxiety for the 4·3 per cent. unemployed we should not forget the 95·7 per cent. of Mancunians who are working and working more efficiently and more productively than ever before.
When looking at the problems of Manchester we must try and see the picture in proper perspective. We are not considering a small district having only one or two industries on which the livelihood of the local population depends. We are dealing with a great and proud centre of industrial strength, and long-standing commercial tradition with wide and strongly-based industries, comprising not only older industries, such as textiles, but those dependent on modern engineering technologies. Its insured population is about 700,000, about 120,000 of whom are employed in a wide variety of engineering and other metal-working industries; 30,000 in clothing; rather less than 20,000 in textiles; 26,000 in the oil and chemical industries; 30,000 in food, drink and tobacco; and many thousands in the paper, printing and publishing trades.
In addition there is a very substantial and growing services sector employing about 380,000, of whom 150,000 are engaged in public administration, education, medical and other professional services. It is clear that with Manchester's excellent location and its commercial reputation the potential for further development of the services sector alone will be very considerable in the climate of an expanding business economy.
I turn now to the subject of Manchester's industrial development. Here the need speaks for itself. But it is quite clear that local industrial development has not stood still. Some of the references which have been made, in the House and elsewhere, to the policy followed by successive Governments in regard to the issuing of industrial development certificates for Manchester imply that a totally restrictive policy is applied.
Whatever the position was under the previous Administration, this is not so now. Applications for I.D.C.s are sympathetically considered, in full recognition of the close ties to the Manchester area which many new projects are likely

to have. This is borne out by the fact that from January, 1970, to December, 1971, a total of 161 I.D.C.s were approved for the Manchester area. Applicants estimated that these new projects would give rise to nearly 3,000 new jobs, over 2,000 of them for men, when they were completed and fully manned. Over the same period only one I.D.C. was refused.

Mr. Alfred Morris: Perhaps I may interrupt this dreary monologue. The hon. Gentleman is not replying to the debate. Will he address himself to the suggestion that he should visit the Manchester area at the earliest possible date?

Mr. Grant: I am answering the point about I.D.C.s which was specifically raised by the hon. Member for Ardwick. I emphasised that over that period only one I.D.C. was refused.
I repeat that, subject only to the paramount requirements of the development areas, our policy has been liberally interpreted in the Manchester area and full account taken of the ties that projects may have to the area. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall continue to pay full regard to the employment needs of Manchester in this respect.
Hon. Members have rehearsed the case for intermediate area status for Manchester, and I can assure them that their points have been carefully noted.
I would, however, remind hon. Members that it is only in recent months that Manchester's total registered unemployment has risen marginally above the national rate, and at 4·3 per cent. in January it remains well below the rate for the North-West Region as a whole. I cannot accept the contention of the hon. Member for Ardwick that these figures are clear evidence of regional decline. With its wide diversity of existing industry and its strong base of commercial activity which is well capable of expansion, Manchester is well placed to feel quickly the benefits of the expansion in the economy which the Government are seeking to bring about.

Mr. Charles R. Morris: This is the same speech as we heard last time.

Mr. Grant: I do not have to remind hon. Members in great detail of what has been done: the reductions in taxation, the improvements in capital allowances, cuts


in purchase tax and the halving of S.E.T. In addition we have reduced Bank Rate and abandoned controls on hire purchase—everything the North-West Industrial Development Association said was required. This is precisely what we have done. This was what we needed to give an upturn to the economy.
On 7th February my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment announced measures to enable eyesores to be removed in the assisted and derelict land clearance areas, both to improve the appearance of these areas and to provide employment. Manchester, as part of the North West Region Derelict Land Clearance Area, should benefit from these schemes, which have to be completed by June, 1973.

Mr. Charles R. Morris: This speech is intolerable.

Mr. Grant: Further evidence of the Government's determination to deal with unemployment has been demonstrated by the recent announcement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment concerning plans for greatly expanding industrial training facilities. As hon. Members will know, the setting up of a new Government training centre for Trafford Park was announced last July. [Interruption.] I know that hon. Members do not like this, but they are going to get it whether they like it or not.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu): Order. Hon. Members have had their say. They must allow the Minister to reply.

Mr. Grant: In that connection it is very encouraging to note that plans for the completion of the two plants by Shell Chemicals are going ahead and that completion is expected by the end of 1973.
I should also like to refer to the point raised by the hon. Member for Man

chester, Blackley (Mr. Rose), if he can take the trouble to pay attention.

Mr. Rose: I have been waiting three months for an answer.

Mr. Grant: The placing of further Nimrod orders with Hawker-Siddeley, which the Defence Department recently announced, will provide work at both the firm's factories for some time to come.
By the time the Government's measures have worked through the economy—

Mr. Rose: Nonsense.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) must not address the House from a sedentary position. He has had his say already.

Mr. Rose: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Grant: No.
By the time the Government's measures have worked through the economy I have no doubt that Manchester's many advantages, including location and the traditional skills of her people, will have attracted investment for which there is a viable future. I hope that everyone with the interests of Manchester at heart, including hon. Members opposite, will do everything they can to encourage local initiative whenever and wherever possible.

The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at three minutes to Eleven o'clock.